yeah it's a tricky situation. on the one hand, a vote against issuing eurobonds is a signal that could easily be mistaken for a lack of solidarity, but doing it without a strictly determined framework could prove to be extremely detrimental and costly in the long run - and do even more damage than the expectation of a post corona economic collapse (which is a realistic scenario for italy, and also some other EU members) could.
in theory and ideologically i'm in favour, but i share your concerns about the responsibility and commitment of some of our fellow europeans. at this point, i would say, it is simply too early for that kind of last resort measure - we don't have the slightest clue yet how severe the damage will be once the dust settles, and if this approach even makes sense.

i also don't think that either option really minimises the massive boost this crisis will give to anti EU parties and sentiments (one of the main arguments in favour of the bonds), it will just shift its focus either north or south. safe to say this crisis certainly hit the eurozone at the worst possible time, politically...

I dont think it's the worst possible time. 2012 or 2015/16 would have been far worse. Calls for eurobonds at those moments in time would have been the end of the Euro and the EU. Now, after coming off of several years of decent economic growth, the EU might find a way out of this.


What this crisis is once again exposing, however, is how ill constructed the Euro is and that it wont be able to survive long-term without either a full fiscal union or extreme austerity in the South. Both options are completely unacceptable to the Northern/Southern states, respectively.

After this crisis is over, we imho really need to split the Euro into two currencies, a Northern Euro and a Southern Euro. Then, both groups of states can pursue the fiscal policies that suit their economies and their mentality.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Mar 27 2020 02:41pm

Yes, Italy not only wants to be left without eurobonds, but also left without access to the common market, freedom of movement, EU funds and infrastructure, etc...

Italy has observed what happened to Greece and it seems like they don't find it very appealing. Can't blame them tbh

And the solid, Northern states dont find it appealing to bail out Italy's €2b++ in debt. Particularly when the average Italian still has a higher net worth than the average German or Dutchman.

Like I said a couple of posts above, this situation is untenable in the long run, we need to split the eurozone into a northern and a southern Euro.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Mar 28 2020 06:42am

meanwhile, germany is flying in critical corona cases from northern italy to treat them here...



explain to me, what exactly do you think "happened to greece"? in what way were those poor guys mistreated by the EU in your opinion, and how would they have been better off without it?

This post was edited by fender on Mar 28 2020 06:44am

Italy will not receive the same treatment as Greece for a number of reasons. Among them are:

The EU is past ultra-austerity.
They are a country with much more leverage, and won't be easily pushed around.
Italy's structure, despite it's inefficiencies, is nowhere near the mess Greece was. Reforms are easier and less painful to implement there.
Italians are significantly more wealthy thank Greeks.
Italy has a strong industry; and is not only limited to agriculture and services, like Greece.
This crisis is much more widespread throughout the continent, so Italy will be much more backed than what Greece was.

Greece will pay for the rest of their existence because the fact of the matter is that their economy cannot compete with the economies of the richer nations but is expected to perform at that level. All the bailout money is expected back + interest by nations that provided the bailout. Don't tell me that you do not understand these basic facts.



Is that a joke? Italy's debt makes Greece's bailout seem like pocket change. Just wait till this shit hits the fan mate.

This post was edited by Djunior on Mar 28 2020 06:51am

Yep I think so too, the differences between the countries are too great.