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Nov 19 2024 02:00pm
Quote (MadMan87 @ Nov 19 2024 02:47pm)
The scary part of this is if Russia comes out of this in good shape the US loses a lot of relevancy.


What decision makers in the west i think fail to grasp is the public is not going to endorse these forever wars for decades to come. So you have to be selective and basically engage when you absolutely need to. Iraq is an example of a huge mistake that spent a lot of 'public willingness capital' for lack of a better phrase. Most Americans aren't on board with throwing hundreds of billion at Ukraine either. I find it so dishonest when the media 'presses' the new border czar saying deportations will cost upwards of $80+BN which is super expensive apparently (with the reporter implying high cost little utility, so the watcher would question the policy) but then have nothing to say about $100+BN being sent to Ukraine on per year basis, now 2 years in a row. We can spare more and more money for unclear geopolitical ambitions thousands of miles away from our border but domestic issues that are felt and seen are something framed as too expensive.

Russia is small potatoes when it comes to actual geopolitical threats on the horizon over the next 20,30,50 years. Europe is an aging continent, which is losing its economic advantage it once held to places like China. The more money we dump on dumb unfruitful wars, the more domestically people will say we don't want it anymore and we've had enough. So when China is restricting shipping lanes in the south China sea and basically quietly pushed us out of hegemony, the populace may be so fed up and tired with the previous wastes of wars, that there wont be any appetite to actually counter the real threat to hegemony.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Nov 19 2024 02:02pm
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Nov 19 2024 02:03pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 19 2024 02:00pm)
What decision makers in the west i think fail to grasp is the public is not going to endorse these forever wars for decades to come. So you have to be selective and basically engage when you absolutely need to. Iraq is an example of a huge mistake that spent a lot of 'public willingness capital' for lack of a better phrase. Most Americans aren't on board with throwing hundreds of billion at Ukraine either. I find it so dishonest when the media 'presses' the new border czar saying deportations will cost upwards of $80+BN which is super expensive apparently (with the reporter implying high cost little utility, so the watcher would question the policy) but then have nothing to say about $100+BN being sent to Ukraine on per year basis, now 2 years in a row. We can spare more and more money for unclear geopolitical ambitions thousands of miles away from our border but domestic issues that are felt and seen are something framed as too expensive.

Russia is small potatoes when it comes to actual geopolitical threats on the horizon over the next 20,30,50 years. Europe is an aging continent, which is losing it's economic advantage it once held to places like China. The more money we dump on dumb unfruitful wars, the more domestically people will say we don't want it anymore and we've had enough. So when China is restricting shipping lanes in the south China sea and basically quietly pushed us out of hegemony, the populace may be so fed up and tired with the previous wastes of wars, that there wont be any appetite to actually counter the real threat to hegemony.


The problem there is Russia and China will back eachother vs the US if things got real.
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Nov 19 2024 02:08pm
Quote (MadMan87 @ Nov 19 2024 03:03pm)
The problem there is Russia and China will back eachother vs the US if things got real.


China and Russia have been historical adversaries for centuries. It was our idiotic policies that pushed Russia to China's camp. We could of had China surrounded. Russia to the north, India to the west and the US/Japan/SK/Australia/Philippines/etc in the south and east. Instead we went full retard and said nah, let's drive Russia to China's sphere of influence because we wanted to expand under their ribs into the Baltics and Ukraine. Big brain logic on display in real time. We got irrelevant small eastern European states and China gets a Russia that has advanced missiles/subs and natural resources 'till kingdom come.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Nov 19 2024 02:08pm
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Nov 19 2024 02:09pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 19 2024 02:08pm)
China and Russia have been historical adversaries for centuries. It was our idiotic policies that pushed Russia to China's camp. We could of had China surrounded. Russia to the north, India to the west and the US/Japan/SK/Australia/Philippines/etc in the south and east. Instead we went full retard and said nah, let's drive Russia to China's sphere of influence because we wanted to expand under their ribs into the Baltics and Ukraine. Big brain logic on display in real time. We got irrelevant small eastern European states and China gets a Russia that has advanced missiles/subs and natural resources 'till kingdom come.


Too late now regardless. Got to approach it as if they are tied at the hip.
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Nov 19 2024 02:11pm
Quote (MadMan87 @ 20 Nov 2024 04:09)
Too late now regardless. Got to approach it as if they are tied at the hip.


Yup, if the aggression, antagonist policy and proxy war increases , WW3 it is.

By the way, India at the moment don't really like China, but they are close to Russia and the West is driving India further and further into normalizing relationship with China.

This post was edited by Hamsterbaby on Nov 19 2024 02:12pm
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Nov 19 2024 02:11pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ 19 Nov 2024 21:08)
China and Russia have been historical adversaries for centuries. It was our idiotic policies that pushed Russia to China's camp. We could of had China surrounded. Russia to the north, India to the west and the US/Japan/SK/Australia/Philippines/etc in the south and east. Instead we went full retard and said nah, let's drive Russia to China's sphere of influence because we wanted to expand under their ribs into the Baltics and Ukraine. Big brain logic on display in real time. We got irrelevant small eastern European states and China gets a Russia that has advanced missiles/subs and natural resources 'till kingdom come.


20th June 1997.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5058947/user-clip-biden-jokes-good-luck-china

This post was edited by Malopox on Nov 19 2024 02:12pm
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Quote (Hamsterbaby @ Nov 19 2024 02:11pm)
Yup, if the aggression, antagonist policy and proxy war increases , WW3 it is.


Luckily I’m pretty much too old and disabled now to be useful and I survived my time.
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Nov 19 2024 02:13pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 19 2024 09:08pm)
It was our idiotic policies that pushed Russia to China's camp.


Russia has been pals with China since Mao Zedong, and they have never stopped. Claiming otherwise is disingenuous.
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Nov 19 2024 02:16pm
Quote (Ashirgo @ 19 Nov 2024 21:13)
Russia has been pals with China since Mao Zedong, and they have never stopped. Claiming otherwise is disingenuous.


China and USSR nearly nuked each other over some god forgotten inland riverbank in the Far East where nobody lives anyway and haven’t really been friends since 1960s. It is mostly due to tireless and consistent work of Delaware senator Joe Biden that they are now friends again.

Claiming otherwise is disingenuous.

This post was edited by Malopox on Nov 19 2024 02:19pm
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Nov 19 2024 02:16pm
Quote (Ashirgo @ Nov 19 2024 03:13pm)
Russia has been pals with China since Mao Zedong, and they have never stopped. Claiming otherwise is disingenuous.


You don't know what you're talking about. Even when both were communist there was a lot of angst. Look up the Sino-Soviet split. At one point history that border was one of the most militarized on earth
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