d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev1457045714572457345745001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 54,063
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Nov 19 2024 10:49am
Quote (bogie160 @ 19 Nov 2024 06:48)
Ukraine was (and is not) a direct democracy, it's a representative one. In a representative democracy you choose the person who represents you. Yanukovych was that person. The decision as to whether it was better to refuse or accede to Russia's demands was entirely his to make.

Just was it was the democratic right of Ukraine's pro-EU faction to start peaceful demonstrations against Yanukovych's decision. Which is exactly what they did. It was Yanukovych who lost his nerves and had the peaceful protesters brutalized by his secret police, then the protesters eventually fought back and from there, the escalation spiral took off.


Quote (Goomshill @ 19 Nov 2024 07:36)
And in a democratic republic, there are ample levers for a majority voice to change the course if they disagree. Elections were due in a year when the EU / RU debate governed a path decades long. People can vote out a president, like America just did. A peaceful transfer of power. Nobody petitioned their government for redress or tried an electoral campaign.

[...] Had the pro-EU faction gained a groundswell of support, how would Russia react? Perhaps they would have been compelled to intervene to crush a Ukrainian democracy opposed to their interests.

The pro-EU faction did indeed see a groundswell of support, it manifested itself via mass demonstrations across most of Ukraine (ofc more pronounced in the West than the East). The pro-Russia side did indeed intervene by attempting to crush this movement with violence.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Nov 19 2024 10:50am
Member
Posts: 28,861
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 10,712.00
Nov 19 2024 11:10am
>Ukrainians want to keep fighting no matter what.

Reality:

Quote
52% of Ukrainians would like to see their country negotiate an end to the war as soon as possible.

38% believe their country should keep fighting until victory.

Source: Gallup’s latest surveys of Ukraine, conducted in August and October 2024,


https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1858845206218432590?s=46
Member
Posts: 92,913
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,299.94
Nov 19 2024 11:33am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 19 2024 11:10am)
>Ukrainians want to keep fighting no matter what.

Reality:



https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1858845206218432590?s=46


sounds like 38% of the people should be on the front lines.
Member
Posts: 16,411
Joined: Apr 9 2007
Gold: 12,059.17
Nov 19 2024 11:33am
Quote (ofthevoid @ 19 Nov 2024 18:10)
>Ukrainians want to keep fighting no matter what.

Reality:



https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1858845206218432590?s=46


Okay, they can try negotiating, but I'm afraid Putin will ask too much to accept, Putin will ask Ukraine to demilitarize or decrease their army, and demilitarized Ukraine will be very easy to conquer in the near future.
I mean Putin makes sense: why lose milion troops conquering Ukraine, when he can ask Ukrainians to disarm as a part of "peace" and conquer Ukraine easier?
Smart guy. Pure evil but smart.
Member
Posts: 9,693
Joined: Mar 2 2006
Gold: 1,590.00
Nov 19 2024 11:35am
Quote (Ironfister @ 19 Nov 2024 18:33)
Okay, they can try negotiating, but I'm afraid Putin will ask too much to accept, Putin will ask Ukraine to demilitarize or decrease their army, and demilitarized Ukraine will be very easy to conquer in the near future.
I mean Putin makes sense: why lose milion troops conquering Ukraine, when he can ask Ukrainians to disarm as a part of "peace" and conquer Ukraine easier?
Smart guy. Pure evil but smart.


Istanbul peace agreement framework was made public long time ago. You can look up what the terms are.

Please stop spreading misinformation.
Member
Posts: 28,861
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 10,712.00
Nov 19 2024 11:40am
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 19 2024 12:33pm)
sounds like 38% of the people should be on the front lines.


I have no way of knowing this for sure but if i had to guess, of that 38% i would bet majority of their sons are not on front lines. It's always the same story, doesn't matter what country. It's the poor that are forced to die while the rich protect their own.
Member
Posts: 92,913
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,299.94
Nov 19 2024 12:03pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 19 2024 11:40am)
I have no way of knowing this for sure but if i had to guess, of that 38% i would bet majority of their sons are not on front lines. It's always the same story, doesn't matter what country. It's the poor that are forced to die while the rich protect their own.


yup, and im sure the "emily" crowd of 4th wave feminist single cat ladies in Ukraine are just as hawkish as they are in the West. easy to sign up other people to die especially if you see something like traditional Russian culture as a boogeyman.
Member
Posts: 16,411
Joined: Apr 9 2007
Gold: 12,059.17
Nov 19 2024 01:43pm
Quote (Malopox @ 19 Nov 2024 18:35)
Istanbul peace agreement framework was made public long time ago. You can look up what the terms are.

Please stop spreading misinformation.


Terms vary, you cant apply 2022 terms in 2024.
When Putin needs a break in war he will offer better deal for a temporary cease fire. But when he doesnt need a break he will offer bad deal.
This is what logic says. So I expect a bad deal, as Putin doesnt seem to need a pause now.
Member
Posts: 15,051
Joined: Sep 29 2021
Gold: 25.00
Nov 19 2024 01:47pm
The scary part of this is if Russia comes out of this in good shape the US loses a lot of relevancy.
Member
Posts: 9,693
Joined: Mar 2 2006
Gold: 1,590.00
Nov 19 2024 01:58pm
Quote (Ironfister @ 19 Nov 2024 20:43)
Terms vary, you cant apply 2022 terms in 2024.
When Putin needs a break in war he will offer better deal for a temporary cease fire. But when he doesnt need a break he will offer bad deal.
This is what logic says. So I expect a bad deal, as Putin doesnt seem to need a pause now.


Please look up the agreement.
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1457045714572457345745001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll