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Nov 18 2024 06:21pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 16 2024 02:47pm)
Except that Scholz hasn't called Putin to make a deal, he called to ask Putin to withdraw his troops from Ukraine. Completely delusional and will of course go nowhere. This call didn't amount to anything substantial. It was a very marginal PR win for Putin because one Western country broke its silence. But Kyiv is vastly overstating the degree to which this phone call is indicative of the Western ostracization of Russia crumbling.

In reality, this was a symbolic gesture by Scholz primarily aimed at a domestic audience. His government just collapsed last week, his Social Democrats (SPD) will face a very tough snap election in February, his own party has a strong appeasenik faction and the SPD is under pressure from Russia-friendly upstart parties on the left and the right. A significant portion of the German electorate want a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine war, so he threw them a bone. The fact that he was unwavering in his unrealistic position ("a fair peace is only possible if Russia withdraws all its troops") proves that it was indeed a symbolic move and nothing more. Truth be told, Scholz is an insanely stubborn and hardheaded guy; he basically never changes his opinion on anything.


Right, so you uncritically and unironically believe that Scholz blinked and called Putin after 2 years simply to remind him "just a reminder, we're still not talking to you! Bye now" because.. that's what the German media reported?

Give me a break. Let's be real here - he called Putin to discuss the terms of capitulation, which are currently being discussed by all NATO members/Western bloc nations. Because there's about T minus 2 months until Trump takes office and ends the war, whether or not the European fairies like it. And they know that, because when the Emperor speaks they listen.
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Nov 18 2024 06:26pm
Quote (El1te @ 19 Nov 2024 08:21)
Right, so you uncritically and unironically believe that Scholz blinked and called Putin after 2 years simply to remind him "just a reminder, we're still not talking to you! Bye now" because.. that's what the German media reported?

Give me a break. Let's be real here - he called Putin to discuss the terms of capitulation, which are currently being discussed by all NATO members/Western bloc nations. Because there's about T minus 2 months until Trump takes office and ends the war, whether or not the European fairies like it. And they know that, because when the Emperor speaks they listen.


If Peace happens, Trump deserves a real Nobel Peace Prize unlike a "Charismatic" ex President who drones woman and children living in 10 USD tents in the desert 12 to 14 years back.
That dude got the Nobel prize due to DEI. :rofl:
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Nov 18 2024 06:28pm
Quote (Hamsterbaby @ Nov 18 2024 04:26pm)
If Peace happens, Trump deserves a real Nobel Peace Prize unlike a "Charismatic" ex President who drones woman and children living in 10 USD tents in the desert 12 to 14 years back.
That dude got the Nobel prize due to DEI. :rofl:


It's too bad the Nobel institution is run by JBs :/

Subverting the legacy of a great Swedish man fills me with personal righteous indignation

This post was edited by El1te on Nov 18 2024 06:33pm
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Nov 18 2024 06:30pm
Quote (Hamsterbaby @ Nov 18 2024 04:26pm)
If Peace happens, Trump deserves a real Nobel Peace Prize unlike a "Charismatic" ex President who drones woman and children living in 10 USD tents in the desert 12 to 14 years back.
That dude got the Nobel prize due to DEI. :rofl:


Trump will receive no recognition from the elite, but achieve apotheosis among the people, just like Julius

This post was edited by El1te on Nov 18 2024 06:37pm
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Nov 18 2024 11:48pm
Quote (Ashirgo @ Nov 18 2024 06:04pm)
He promised to continue on the EU path, yet he was pressured by an external actor to drop these ambitions. Yielding to threats or blackmail is not "making a hard decision," nor is it representing what some of his voters wanted. Russia interfered with the democratic process by applying pressure.

Maybe let's ask, why did Russia oppose the EU deal in the first place?


Ukraine was (and is not) a direct democracy, it's a representative one. In a representative democracy you choose the person who represents you. Yanukovych was that person. The decision as to whether it was better to refuse or accede to Russia's demands was entirely his to make.

States routinely put pressure on one another to advance their own interests. The EU did this just recently with respect to Georgia, and EU leaders have been very vocal about Hungary's Orban, someone who might genuinely threatens their interests and yet simultaneously possesses a clear democratic mandate. When states disagree there are consequences for one side or the other or both. Russia provided an ultimatum, and it was for Yanukovych to decide which course of action was in Ukraine's best interests. Given how things have turned out, perhaps he was right all along.
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Nov 19 2024 12:36am
Quote (bogie160 @ Nov 18 2024 11:48pm)
Ukraine was (and is not) a direct democracy, it's a representative one. In a representative democracy you choose the person who represents you. Yanukovych was that person. The decision as to whether it was better to refuse or accede to Russia's demands was entirely his to make.

States routinely put pressure on one another to advance their own interests. The EU did this just recently with respect to Georgia, and EU leaders have been very vocal about Hungary's Orban, someone who might genuinely threatens their interests and yet simultaneously possesses a clear democratic mandate. When states disagree there are consequences for one side or the other or both. Russia provided an ultimatum, and it was for Yanukovych to decide which course of action was in Ukraine's best interests. Given how things have turned out, perhaps he was right all along.


And in a democratic republic, there are ample levers for a majority voice to change the course if they disagree. Elections were due in a year when the EU / RU debate governed a path decades long. People can vote out a president, like America just did. A peaceful transfer of power. Nobody petitioned their government for redress or tried an electoral campaign.

Since the start of this war, I've consistently said two things. That a moralizing lens is irrelevant to realpolitik. And the west forfeited the hypothetical moral high ground that could have come, anyway. Had the pro-EU faction gained a groundswell of support, how would Russia react? Perhaps they would have been compelled to intervene to crush a Ukrainian democracy opposed to their interests. Or god forbid, Russia might have simply acceded the loss. We will never know. Instead we helped overthrow a democracy and install a puppet regime, and the real sin is that we weren't willing to invest the strength necessary to defend our ill gotten claims. Steal a country and abandon it.
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Nov 19 2024 12:39am


First President of Ukraine (Kravchuk) promises in 1991
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Nov 19 2024 01:04am
Quote (bogie160 @ Nov 19 2024 12:48pm)
Ukraine was (and is not) a direct democracy, it's a representative one. In a representative democracy you choose the person who represents you. Yanukovych was that person. The decision as to whether it was better to refuse or accede to Russia's demands was entirely his to make.

States routinely put pressure on one another to advance their own interests. The EU did this just recently with respect to Georgia, and EU leaders have been very vocal about Hungary's Orban, someone who might genuinely threatens their interests and yet simultaneously possesses a clear democratic mandate. When states disagree there are consequences for one side or the other or both. Russia provided an ultimatum, and it was for Yanukovych to decide which course of action was in Ukraine's best interests. Given how things have turned out, perhaps he was right all along.


Quote (Goomshill @ Nov 19 2024 01:36pm)
And in a democratic republic, there are ample levers for a majority voice to change the course if they disagree. Elections were due in a year when the EU / RU debate governed a path decades long. People can vote out a president, like America just did. A peaceful transfer of power. Nobody petitioned their government for redress or tried an electoral campaign.

Since the start of this war, I've consistently said two things. That a moralizing lens is irrelevant to realpolitik. And the west forfeited the hypothetical moral high ground that could have come, anyway. Had the pro-EU faction gained a groundswell of support, how would Russia react? Perhaps they would have been compelled to intervene to crush a Ukrainian democracy opposed to their interests. Or god forbid, Russia might have simply acceded the loss. We will never know. Instead we helped overthrow a democracy and install a puppet regime, and the real sin is that we weren't willing to invest the strength necessary to defend our ill gotten claims. Steal a country and abandon it.


Quote (Malopox @ Nov 19 2024 01:39pm)
https://i.imgur.com/OdfEQYq.jpeg

First President of Ukraine (Kravchuk) promises in 1991


Three great posts in a row
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Nov 19 2024 01:37am
Quote (bogie160 @ Nov 19 2024 06:48am)
Ukraine was (and is not) a direct democracy, it's a representative one. In a representative democracy you choose the person who represents you. Yanukovych was that person. The decision as to whether it was better to refuse or accede to Russia's demands was entirely his to make.

States routinely put pressure on one another to advance their own interests. The EU did this just recently with respect to Georgia, and EU leaders have been very vocal about Hungary's Orban, someone who might genuinely threatens their interests and yet simultaneously possesses a clear democratic mandate. When states disagree there are consequences for one side or the other or both. Russia provided an ultimatum, and it was for Yanukovych to decide which course of action was in Ukraine's best interests. Given how things have turned out, perhaps he was right all along.


So to sum up, Yanukovych and Ukraine were under economic and potentially also military Russian threat at the point in time when he suddenly stopped the parliament-approved EU talks.

Ah these Russians, always fun to be around. You either take their deal, or you freeze in winter without natural gas, or better yet they send tanks. I'm not so shocked that many Ukrainians were fed up with this nonsense. Remind me again when EU threatens Hungary with energy cuts or with tanks.

This post was edited by Ashirgo on Nov 19 2024 01:57am
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Nov 19 2024 01:45am
Quote (Goomshill @ Nov 19 2024 07:36am)
And in a democratic republic, there are ample levers for a majority voice to change the course if they disagree. Elections were due in a year when the EU / RU debate governed a path decades long. People can vote out a president, like America just did. A peaceful transfer of power. Nobody petitioned their government for redress or tried an electoral campaign.



I actually agree.

And I highly doubt that EU would incite a violent uprising, either. EU politicians themselves said that "the doors remain open" after Yanukovych stopped the association talks. From EU perspective, waiting another 5 years was nothing - they don't care that much, after all. Not enough to plunge a country into chaos and war. It's entirely a Russian disinformation perspective which suggests otherwise.
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