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#4551
Apr 13 2022 05:23am
Quote (ferdia @ Apr 13 2022 06:18am)
To be fair to fender (and everyone knows that fender and I have bashed heads in this topic) he is right in this instance that your argument is weak.

Ultimately Nato will not attack Russia first. probably. counter attacking after a nato member has been attacked by Russia, is a different scenario, and one which is expected, in the unlikely event that russia attacks a Nato member.


Who's talking about attacking Russia 'first'? Its literally right in the NATO charter that its an alliance in response to an attack. That is the scenario being discussed.
Follow this quote chain back. Literally the very first sentence:

Quote (Goomshill @ Apr 13 2022 04:17am)
NATO is a military alliance that vows to attack Russia if Russia attacks any member state.


:bonk:

The entire point is, as I said:

Quote
And the west does not give a shit about the Ukrainian people, never has, and certainly doesn't right now no matter how much we pretend otherwise. Biden heralded this war by preemptively announcing he wouldn't intervene to stop Russia. We won't risk direct conflict for the sake of Ukraine. We would if it was Poland, but not Ukraine. That's what NATO means. Its not a magic badge you wear and get a shield, Ukraine never had a chance at gaining it. The west knew Russia would act to stop NATO expansion into Ukraine, the west wasn't willing to fight over it.


We weren't willing to declare war on Russia in response to Russia attacking Ukraine. We were unwilling to fight a war against a nuclear power on Ukraine's behalf. Unlike all the other NATO states, where we explicitly made that guarantee. Biden explicitly came out and said we wouldn't intervene on Ukraine's behalf. Because a military alliance isn't just some pledge we hand out like cookies to anyone who asks for one.


Quote (Skinned @ Apr 13 2022 06:20am)
...
If Russia was a Democracy there would be no war in Ukraine right now.
...


One of the worst tropes in american foreign policy over the past few decades has been the fatal hubris and jingoistic belief that spreading democracy to every country will make them like us. If a bunch of hajjis take time off from blowing each other up to cast votes in a free and fair election, they'll elect their ISIS-equivalent to behead whichever sect of muslims are the minority. And jews. Because that's what the common folks want. And fact is, Russians would keep re-electing Putin

This post was edited by Goomshill on Apr 13 2022 05:29am
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#4552
Apr 13 2022 05:26am
Quote (Norlander @ Apr 13 2022 12:20pm)
Sadam Hussain was thinking the same. Rhyme!


A valid point.

Noting the media war and narrative continues to escalate,
Goomshill
any view on American position if in a hypothetical scenario Russia invades Finland (not a Nato member) in the next 3 months?

I cant see Russia invading Finland, but they will be very cross I guess. no idea what response that would be.

This post was edited by ferdia on Apr 13 2022 05:31am
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#4553
Apr 13 2022 05:28am
Quote (Goomshill @ 13 Apr 2022 13:04)
do you not actually know the purpose of NATO?
There's no such thing as "merely defend" in a nuclear age. The entire point of NATO is to say that if the Russians nuke a NATO member, we nuke them back. That if they attack any NATO member, we attack them back. We don't "defend" a NATO country by saying we'll supply arms and training and moral support to them while they're being invaded, we don't vow to sanction their attackers and boycott their products and denounce them in most vehement language, we don't say we'll stop an invasion by holding it at the Russian border and refuse to tiptoe over. Article 5 of the NATO charter says an attack against one member is an attack against all. That we declare war on anyone who attacks one member state. You know, an alliance. One of the most basic concepts in international relations that exists back to prehistoric times. You know, when you get the prompt that the Trilarians want to join an alliance with you, and later when the Darloks attack them, they demand you declare war on the Darloks?

I'm not sure how much more fundamental this could get. The entire point of NATO is that it is a formal military alliance, that each country vows to fight a war if any of them is attacked. It says it right on the tin. And NATO and the west in general are unwilling to fight a war to protect Ukraine, and were not willing to expand NATO into Ukraine. Comprende?


Right, so how is this a threat to russia ?
All they need to do is not to nuke anyone and they wont be nuked.

Doesnt seem like much of a threat to me, when all russia would need to do is not to attack and not to nuke anyone. But they did, proving that the existence and expansion of nato is more important than ever.
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#4554
Apr 13 2022 05:33am
Quote (Norlander @ 13 Apr 2022 13:20)
Sadam Hussain was thinking the same. Rhyme!


uh, the nato didn't attack saddam hussein. in fact, key nato members (france, germany) defied the US and UK, correctly pointing out there was no legitimate reason to invade the country, pushing for a continued diplomatic approach and weapons inspections.

also, iraq doesn't have nukes, let alone the largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

again, nato will not attack russia. putin knows that. every halfway intelligent person knows that. join the club if you can.

Quote (ferdia @ 13 Apr 2022 13:26)
A valid point.

Noting the media war and narrative continues to escalate, ^Goomshill any view on American position if in a hypothetical scenario Russia invades Finland (not a Nato member) in the next 3 months?

I cant see Russia invading Finland, but they will be very cross I guess. no idea what response that would be.


it's NOT a valid point, see above.

This post was edited by fender on Apr 13 2022 05:35am
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#4555
Apr 13 2022 05:34am
Quote (Ognadibik @ Apr 13 2022 06:28am)
Right, so how is this a threat to russia ?
All they need to do is not to nuke anyone and they wont be nuked.

Doesnt seem like much of a threat to me, when all russia would need to do is not to attack and not to nuke anyone. But they did, proving that the existence and expansion of nato is more important than ever.


Do you really need it explained why Russia would feel threatened by the expansion of a hostile military alliance that encroaches on their borders and can position first-strike nuclear weapons across the border from their major cities, while that alliance engages in open economic warfare on them, vowing to destroy their markets and decapitate their government? Granted, pretty ineffective economic warfare, the dollar is hurting more than the ruble, but still. Russia has spent the past 30 years fighting proxy wars against NATO, lets not pretend Russia's self-interest would be to idly twiddle their thumbs while their enemies encircle them. The past few weeks have shown Putin isn't a complete mastermind, but he's not a moron either
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#4556
Apr 13 2022 05:36am
Quote (Goomshill @ Apr 13 2022 07:23am)
Who's talking about attacking Russia 'first'? Its literally right in the NATO charter that its an alliance in response to an attack. That is the scenario being discussed.
Follow this quote chain back. Literally the very first sentence:



:bonk:

The entire point is, as I said:



We weren't willing to declare war on Russia in response to Russia attacking Ukraine. We were unwilling to fight a war against a nuclear power on Ukraine's behalf. Unlike all the other NATO states, where we explicitly made that guarantee. Biden explicitly came out and said we wouldn't intervene on Ukraine's behalf. Because a military alliance isn't just some pledge we hand out like cookies to anyone who asks for one.




One of the worst tropes in american foreign policy over the past few decades has been the fatal hubris and jingoistic belief that spreading democracy to every country will make them like us. If a bunch of hajjis take time off from blowing each other up to cast votes in a free and fair election, they'll elect their ISIS-equivalent to behead whichever sect of muslims are the minority. And jews. Because that's what the common folks want. And fact is, Russians would keep re-electing Putin


Anybody running against Putin always ends up with an acute case of lifelessness due to poisoning, imprisonment, or imprisonment and mistreatment until early death.
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#4557
Apr 13 2022 05:37am
Quote (fender @ Apr 13 2022 12:33pm)
uh, the nato didn't attack saddam hussein. in fact, key nato members (france, germany) defied the US and UK, correctly pointing out there was no legitimate reason to invade the country, pushing for a continued diplomatic approach and weapons inspections.

also, iraq doesn't have nukes, let alone the largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

again, nato will not attack russia. putin knows that. every halfway intelligent person knows that. join the club if you can.



it's NOT a valid point, see above.


I do not bash on America but broadly the Ukraine crisis was caused by America, as was Iraq, and therefore my own view is it was a valid point re: Saddam; Putin.

When arguing that Nato will not attack your omitting the scenario where they do so to defend Finland. the way you are framing your responses your giving black and white with no caveats which is probably why Goomshill is disagreeing with you.

happy to be corrected on this @
Goomshill


This post was edited by ferdia on Apr 13 2022 05:42am
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#4558
Apr 13 2022 05:37am
Quote (Skinned @ 13 Apr 2022 19:20)


If Russia was a Democracy there would be no war in Ukraine right now.



Are you joking.
Democracy have got nothing to do with whether a country will start a war.
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#4559
Apr 13 2022 05:38am
Quote (fender @ 13 Apr 2022 14:33)
uh, the nato didn't attack saddam hussein. in fact, key nato members (france, germany) defied the US and UK, correctly pointing out there was no legitimate reason to invade the country, pushing for a continued diplomatic approach and weapons inspections.

also, iraq doesn't have nukes, let alone the largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

again, nato will not attack russia. putin knows that. every halfway intelligent person knows that. join the club if you can.



it's NOT a valid point, see above.


So the main goal would be to weaken Russia, make them get rid of nukes and then do a Sadam trick.
Why Russia is not a NATO member since 90s?
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#4560
Apr 13 2022 05:40am
Quote (ferdia @ Apr 13 2022 06:26am)
A valid point.

Noting the media war and narrative continues to escalate, ^Goomshill any view on American position if in a hypothetical scenario Russia invades Finland (not a Nato member) in the next 3 months?

I cant see Russia invading Finland, but they will be very cross I guess. no idea what response that would be.


As we saw in this conflict, Russia can't just teleport all its troops into a country to invade it. There are obvious signs of staging an invasion force. I think any attempt by Russia to stage an invasion of Sweden or Finland prior to their expected NATO entry would just result in an immediate, emergency acceptance into NATO and the west vowing to treat any attack on them the same as NATO before any formalities were signed. They've already been explicit EU members and implicit NATO allies for a long time now. Same thing for any scenario with cross border raids. Sweden and Finland are rich westernized European countries who have been entirely within the western sphere of influence since the end of WW2. Ukraine was a poor shithole nobody cared about and was firmly within the Russian sphere of influence until Euromaidan. I don't think they can be compared
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