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Nov 10 2024 03:49pm
Quote (Malopox @ Nov 10 2024 03:37pm)
Trump and Putin have entered dialogue over Ukraine, WaPo reports. One might say it’s the beginning of peace process. But Trump is in for a bumpy ride. Not to mention Ukraine.

https://i.imgur.com/BPC1dC0.png

Trump and Putin discussed possible end to war in Ukraine — The Washington Post

WSJ writes that Trump expressed concern about the costs of supporting Ukraine for US taxpayers and suggested that the world might demand that Ukraine cede some territory: for example, Crimea.

The presidents "discussed the possibility of achieving peace on the European continent as quickly as possible." Trump made it clear that he would support a deal in which Russia would retain some of the territory it controls .

Ukrainian officials "have long understood that Trump would engage with Putin on a diplomatic solution for Ukraine," the sources said.



It's going to be difficult to come to some middle ground. Russia is not going to want to give Ukraine the same deal that was on the table in 2022, even though the US/Ukraine may be pushing for something like that.
It would look like a loss domestically if all they come out with this war is Crimea and pre-2022 war Donbass. I also don't think Russia would give up control of highly important cities like Melitopol, Mariupol, Berdiansk, giving Ukraine access to Azov sea is highly unlikely--again would look like a net loss.

What i think would be most fair is freezing the conflict. They can exchange Kharkov oblast territory for Kursk withdrawal and both side can claim some 'win' domestically.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Nov 10 2024 03:50pm
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Nov 10 2024 03:52pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ 10 Nov 2024 22:49)
It's going to be difficult to come to some middle ground. Russia is not going to want to give Ukraine the same deal that was on the table in 2022, even though the US/Ukraine may be pushing for something like that.
It would look like a loss domestically if all they come out with this war is Crimea and pre-2022 war Donbass. I also don't think Russia would give up control of highly important cities like Melitopol, Mariupol, Berdiansk, giving Ukraine access to Azov sea is highly unlikely--again would look like a net loss.

What i think would be most fair is freezing the conflict. They can exchange Kharkov oblast territory for Kursk withdrawal and both side can claim some 'win' domestically.


I found this commentary to be most reasonable:

https://x.com/leonidragozin/status/1855150142657069159?
Code
Trump’s plan is not going to work for one reason - NATO. Whether it’s postponed by 20 or 120 years, it’s just a non-starter for the Kremlin.

This is the residue from the lingering self-deception in the West about Putin’s motives - a self-deception that was engineered by those benefitting from the conflict.

The Kremlin made it abundantly clear what its endgame is - the rest is the insofar unsuccessful attempts to shift its position. These desperate attempts are resulting in Ukraine losing swathes of territory and thousands of lives after each of the squandered opportunities to end the war on much better terms than it can feasibly hope for at every subsequent stage.

During Valday meeting, Putin was unequivocal - Ukraine’s neutrality is non-negotiable. But he dodged the question about the line of separation (formulated by Lukyanov as Ukraine’s “new borders”).

So land is up for bargaining, except Russia is clearly intent on ousting the Ukrainians from Kursk region to keep it out of the bargain.

The Kremlin reiterated yesterday that potential talks with Trump will be based on Moscow’s June 14 ultimatum which frames Russia’s starting negotiating position as Istanbul framework plus Ukraine’s withdrawal from the four formally annexed regions.

But as we know from Istanbul experience, concessions are likely. There is room for bargaining about territory. The Kremlin will try to grab one of Europe’s largest lithium deposits near Velyka Novosilka and the coking mine in Pokrovsk on which Kryvbas metallurgy depends. These are both very close to the frontline. But beyond that, it could just as well stop and agree to ceasefire.

Kremlin’s main goals in this conflict - in my reading - are to ensure Ukraine’s permanent neutrality and humiliate the West - but not too much so that a reset was possible. The rest is tactical. But it is important to understand that it wants an agreement set in stone, not a new Minsk that will be ditched after a few years.

Apart from the land, what’s really negotiable is Russia’s frozen assets. Putin knows it will be hard to get them back. But allocating them for post-war reconstruction will be good for Russia’s image and his own, for winning hearts and minds in Ukraine which is will be strongly anti-Western after what most people will see as a defeat in a war that could have been avoided. It will also allow Russia to negotiate the lifting of sanctions while taking the burden of reconstruction of the Western taxpayers’ shoulders.

As per Istanbul framework, Russia will insist on a small-sized Ukrainian army - but the exact size and armaments are also up for a bargain.

It will also press with denazification and ditching discriminative laws aimed against Russian language and common heritage. Ukraine could and should use these issues as a bargaining chip, but ultimately proceeding with both will be for its own good if it strives to be a democratic and truly European country.
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Nov 10 2024 03:58pm
Quote (Malopox @ Nov 10 2024 04:52pm)
I found this commentary to be most reasonable:

https://x.com/leonidragozin/status/1855150142657069159?
Code
Trump’s plan is not going to work for one reason - NATO. Whether it’s postponed by 20 or 120 years, it’s just a non-starter for the Kremlin.

This is the residue from the lingering self-deception in the West about Putin’s motives - a self-deception that was engineered by those benefitting from the conflict.

The Kremlin made it abundantly clear what its endgame is - the rest is the insofar unsuccessful attempts to shift its position. These desperate attempts are resulting in Ukraine losing swathes of territory and thousands of lives after each of the squandered opportunities to end the war on much better terms than it can feasibly hope for at every subsequent stage.

During Valday meeting, Putin was unequivocal - Ukraine’s neutrality is non-negotiable. But he dodged the question about the line of separation (formulated by Lukyanov as Ukraine’s “new borders”).

So land is up for bargaining, except Russia is clearly intent on ousting the Ukrainians from Kursk region to keep it out of the bargain.

The Kremlin reiterated yesterday that potential talks with Trump will be based on Moscow’s June 14 ultimatum which frames Russia’s starting negotiating position as Istanbul framework plus Ukraine’s withdrawal from the four formally annexed regions.

But as we know from Istanbul experience, concessions are likely. There is room for bargaining about territory. The Kremlin will try to grab one of Europe’s largest lithium deposits near Velyka Novosilka and the coking mine in Pokrovsk on which Kryvbas metallurgy depends. These are both very close to the frontline. But beyond that, it could just as well stop and agree to ceasefire.

Kremlin’s main goals in this conflict - in my reading - are to ensure Ukraine’s permanent neutrality and humiliate the West - but not too much so that a reset was possible. The rest is tactical. But it is important to understand that it wants an agreement set in stone, not a new Minsk that will be ditched after a few years.

Apart from the land, what’s really negotiable is Russia’s frozen assets. Putin knows it will be hard to get them back. But allocating them for post-war reconstruction will be good for Russia’s image and his own, for winning hearts and minds in Ukraine which is will be strongly anti-Western after what most people will see as a defeat in a war that could have been avoided. It will also allow Russia to negotiate the lifting of sanctions while taking the burden of reconstruction of the Western taxpayers’ shoulders.

As per Istanbul framework, Russia will insist on a small-sized Ukrainian army - but the exact size and armaments are also up for a bargain.

It will also press with denazification and ditching discriminative laws aimed against Russian language and common heritage. Ukraine could and should use these issues as a bargaining chip, but ultimately proceeding with both will be for its own good if it strives to be a democratic and truly European country.


NATO membership is a non-starter, and the people that keep insisting, whether it's in Ukraine or Washington or Brussels are not serious about coming to some middle ground peace. I honestly think these people are asking for this because it's a feign to appear as if they are striving for peace but it's just a poison pill by neocons. I mean I'm not sure how many times do Russian authorities need to repeat that it doesn't matter if it's next year, 4 years or 20 years down the line, it's an unacceptable request.

I don't think Russia gets the full 4 regions. I also don't know about the frozen assets. I think if Russia gets the full 4 Oblasts, that would be viewed as a loss for Ukraine IMO.
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Nov 10 2024 04:39pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 10 2024 10:58pm)
NATO membership is a non-starter, and the people that keep insisting, whether it's in Ukraine or Washington or Brussels are not serious about coming to some middle ground peace. I honestly think these people are asking for this because it's a feign to appear as if they are striving for peace but it's just a poison pill by neocons. I mean I'm not sure how many times do Russian authorities need to repeat that it doesn't matter if it's next year, 4 years or 20 years down the line, it's an unacceptable request.

I don't think Russia gets the full 4 regions. I also don't know about the frozen assets. I think if Russia gets the full 4 Oblasts, that would be viewed as a loss for Ukraine IMO.

From Russia's POV the collective west cannot be trusted after Minsk I and Minsk II. I doubt Russia would agree to anything except to a complete capitulation by Ukraine. There is no point in negotiating from both sides. The point is whether Russia would be able to conquer all of the Ukraine or only eastern part before they are out of steam. US + EU provide everything to Ukraine, so Russia would be out of steam. Israel and Gaza happened and they've got the priority by US and EU. Ukraine is getting less and less support to exhaust Russia. Trump might stop with the aid altogether.

This post was edited by babun1024 on Nov 10 2024 04:42pm
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Nov 10 2024 05:03pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 10 2024 03:49pm)
It's going to be difficult to come to some middle ground. Russia is not going to want to give Ukraine the same deal that was on the table in 2022, even though the US/Ukraine may be pushing for something like that.
It would look like a loss domestically if all they come out with this war is Crimea and pre-2022 war Donbass. I also don't think Russia would give up control of highly important cities like Melitopol, Mariupol, Berdiansk, giving Ukraine access to Azov sea is highly unlikely--again would look like a net loss.

What i think would be most fair is freezing the conflict. They can exchange Kharkov oblast territory for Kursk withdrawal and both side can claim some 'win' domestically.


Yeah I don't envision any realistic chance Russia is going to give up territory paid for in blood and treasure, in exchange for.... empty words? Russia would be willing to ceasefire and maybe do some land swaps and demilitarize the lines but they didn't siege Mariupol , raze it and rebuild it just so they could turn the new rebuilt Mariupol over to the west. If a deal demands Russia surrender territory captured in battle but they have no reason to do so, the deal is going nowhere. Best thing now is to staunch the bleeding and mend as much of the wounds we can, the US EU is effectively gaining territory overall as we seized the west and held it
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Nov 10 2024 05:07pm
Quote (babun1024 @ Nov 10 2024 02:39pm)
From Russia's POV the collective west cannot be trusted after Minsk I and Minsk II. I doubt Russia would agree to anything except to a complete capitulation by Ukraine. There is no point in negotiating from both sides. The point is whether Russia would be able to conquer all of the Ukraine or only eastern part before they are out of steam. US + EU provide everything to Ukraine, so Russia would be out of steam. Israel and Gaza happened and they've got the priority by US and EU. Ukraine is getting less and less support to exhaust Russia. Trump might stop with the aid altogether.


A total capitulation of Ukraine is required: one of Russia's objectives is the denazification of Ukraine, which requires a new government with Russian management and oversight to implement. No empty words will ever be trusted again, therefore Russia will not trust another Western-managed government to eradicate Ukronazism. Either this would be a new Western Ukraine rump state (the hopeful outcome for Ukraine) as a Russian client state, or total annexation of Ukraine into the Russian Federation.
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Nov 10 2024 05:44pm
its a wait and see. for sure we are living in interesting times. Donald Trump, who knew! its hilarious, first they were saying "well donald trump said he would end it in a day" and now they are saying "donald trump is giving land to Russia". absolutely hilarious mental gymnastics.

Ukraine bombed its own people for 8 years, it has lost the right to govern those people, and Ukraine can forget about crimea, finally.

This post was edited by ferdia on Nov 10 2024 05:46pm
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Nov 10 2024 06:43pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Nov 10 2024 03:03pm)
Yeah I don't envision any realistic chance Russia is going to give up territory paid for in blood and treasure, in exchange for.... empty words? Russia would be willing to ceasefire and maybe do some land swaps and demilitarize the lines but they didn't siege Mariupol , raze it and rebuild it just so they could turn the new rebuilt Mariupol over to the west. If a deal demands Russia surrender territory captured in battle but they have no reason to do so, the deal is going nowhere. Best thing now is to staunch the bleeding and mend as much of the wounds we can, the US EU is effectively gaining territory overall as we seized the west and held it


Didn't Trump propose to draw a DMZ around the current occupied zone, effectively splitting those regions?
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Nov 10 2024 07:12pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 10 2024 10:58pm)
NATO membership is a non-starter, and the people that keep insisting, whether it's in Ukraine or Washington or Brussels are not serious about coming to some middle ground peace. I honestly think these people are asking for this because it's a feign to appear as if they are striving for peace but it's just a poison pill by neocons. I mean I'm not sure how many times do Russian authorities need to repeat that it doesn't matter if it's next year, 4 years or 20 years down the line, it's an unacceptable request.

I don't think Russia gets the full 4 regions. I also don't know about the frozen assets. I think if Russia gets the full 4 Oblasts, that would be viewed as a loss for Ukraine IMO.


its all in bad faith, the pentagon/NATO wants the war to continue to weaken russia and western liberals are willing to sacrifice every last ukranian like its spring 1945 just so thes can stick with their POOOOOTIN BAD hypermoral

well said with the poison pill

Quote (ferdia @ Nov 11 2024 12:44am)
its a wait and see. for sure we are living in interesting times. Donald Trump, who knew! its hilarious, first they were saying "well donald trump said he would end it in a day" and now they are saying "donald trump is giving land to Russia". absolutely hilarious mental gymnastics.

Ukraine bombed its own people for 8 years, it has lost the right to govern those people, and Ukraine can forget about crimea, finally.


you can still find clips from back in the day "someone stop the ukranian regime from murdering its own people"

and then everything flipped
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Nov 10 2024 07:13pm
Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ Nov 10 2024 05:12pm)
its all in bad faith, the pentagon/NATO wants the war to continue to weaken russia and western liberals are willing to sacrifice every last ukranian like its spring 1945 just so thes can stick with their POOOOOTIN BAD hypermoral

well said with the poison pill



you can still find clips from back in the day "someone stop the ukranian regime from murdering its own people"

and then everything flipped


Historians will refer to the past era as "the madness" or something similar
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