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Oct 28 2024 04:40am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Oct 28 2024 03:23am)
And why would Putin agree to any kind of deal in which he gets less than what he could take on the battlefield? That's the point I've been making for well over a year in this thread: unless the West finds a way to change the calculus on the battlefield, Putin has no incentive to compromise.


Hard to say due to fog of war and western media cope, but it seems that Russia has taken all it can. With the exception of the village of zhzhhzhinskyisnkyovka with a population of 2 that Russia seems to take every week, the front line has been by and large stable. That and Russia's internal woes and attrition from the war tells my instinct that if Putin had a favorable way out, he'd take it. Annexing 3 oblasts is a massive win. It would allow Russia a much needed reprieve in the face of multiple challenges elsewhere in the world. (Caucusus, Africa, Levant)
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Oct 28 2024 04:51am
Quote (Thebarba @ Oct 28 2024 05:40am)
Hard to say due to fog of war and western media cope, but it seems that Russia has taken all it can. With the exception of the village of zhzhhzhinskyisnkyovka with a population of 2 that Russia seems to take every week, the front line has been by and large stable. That and Russia's internal woes and attrition from the war tells my instinct that if Putin had a favorable way out, he'd take it. Annexing 3 oblasts is a massive win. It would allow Russia a much needed reprieve in the face of multiple challenges elsewhere in the world. (Caucusus, Africa, Levant)


well in the past 72 hours alone they took Selydove (21,521), Izmailivka (199), Tsukuryne (1745) and Bohoyavlenka (1490). They are now knocking on the door of Pokrovsk (60,127) and Myrnohrad (46,098) which are the next major targets along the donetsk front. The front line went from stable and slow moving to pretty rapid advances all of a sudden, and UA forces fell back hard
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Oct 28 2024 07:12am
Quote (Goomshill @ 28 Oct 2024 11:37)
Putin needs to be at a position where the incentives of a peace deal outweigh what he can take on the battlefield. Where a combination of lifting sanctions, reintegrating energy imports, regional security guarantees and any land concessions are sweet enough and the impediments to further progress and their lack of value and difficulty to hold are sour enough. He's still absolutely in a position where we could negotiate that kind of deal to split Ukraine in half and end the nu-cold war, because its still a costly war and risks his stability. And we're still favored to hold this same bargaining position since its much more difficult and less rewarding for Russia to move into the hostile west of Ukraine where the population actually opposes him and has no resources to claim. Yet, the danger for us now is that if Ukraine falls into rout after out and implodes, Putin will have a clear shot for Kiev and be able to dictate terms of any deal

The incentives to compromise exist now, but the battlefield gains might make our window fleeting


Appreciate the answer!

I gotta disagree on some details, though. First the bolded part: I don't see Putin pushing into the territory on the right bank of the Dnieper. Imho, Kharkiv, Dnipro and Odessa are the north-western-most places of Russian interest in their respective parts of Ukraine. So if a peace deal was on the table in which Putin gets all those, he'd take it in a heartbeat. But such a deal would amount to a near-unconditional Ukrainian surrender anyway. My thinking is more concerned with what it would take for Putin to settle for a deal in which he doesn't get those places. And I have a much harder time seeing a rationale for him to take such a deal which would enshrine the current lines while his troops are making good progress toward high-value targets.



Second, the promise of lifting sanctions and reintegrating Russia in the Western economy seems wholly unrealistic to me. After the experience of the past 3 years, which investor (Western or Russian) would actually be willing to make major investment into new pipelines, new factories or new trade partnerships? Particularly against the backdrop of Western security guarantees for Ukraine, which would have to be part of any kind of deal, but would mean that trade breaks down again and investment will be lost as soon as the situation escalates yet again at any point in the future?

Furthermore, such an offer would expose the diverging economic self-interests within the West. Germany would love to gobble up as much natural gas as it can get while the Poles and Baltics would want a firm economic iron curtain to be upheld. The Americans would love to continue their LNG shipments to Europe, but also for the European economy to get going again, so they would imho want us to get some Russian resources, but not too much. It would also present Western corporations with difficult choices. Would BASF rethink plans to build new factories abroad if Germany regained access to cheap Russian gas, but its reliability was highly doubtful?

Tldr: the economic aftermath is a fucking mess.
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Oct 28 2024 08:10am
Quote (Thebarba @ 28 Oct 2024 01:33)
Calling it now

Full annexation and permanent forfeit of claim by Ukraine and international recognition of Crimea Donetsk Luhansk as part of Russian Fed
Russian withdrawal from Zapro and Kherson
UA withdrawal from Kursk if they're still in there
DMZ established in most of Zapro Kherson and parts of Dnipro and Kharkiv
Ukraine security guarantee if some kind but without permanent NATO admission
Russian forfeit of claim on remaining Ukraine territory


1) Doubt Russians will let go of Kherson as it supplies fresh water to Crimea and Ukranians blocked that water and starved Crimea for 8 years. Dam blocking water supply to Crimea was blown up in 2022.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/03/04/north-crimean-canal-fills-with-water-after-russian-forces-destroyed-dam-a76755

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal

2) Zapprozhie has Nuclear plant which is a good asset to have. Energy supply for new regions is ensured if Energodar is kept within Russian control.

3) I think Russians would want to ensure no access to Black Sea for Ukraninan rump state leftovers so independence for Odessa / Nikolaev might be on the books (doubt Russians can take it by force or want to integrate Odessa/Nikolaev).
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Oct 28 2024 08:54am
Quote (Malopox @ Oct 28 2024 07:10am)
1) Doubt Russians will let go of Kherson as it supplies fresh water to Crimea and Ukranians blocked that water and starved Crimea for 8 years. Dam blocking water supply to Crimea was blown up in 2022.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/03/04/north-crimean-canal-fills-with-water-after-russian-forces-destroyed-dam-a76755

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal

2) Zapprozhie has Nuclear plant which is a good asset to have. Energy supply for new regions is ensured if Energodar is kept within Russian control.

3) I think Russians would want to ensure no access to Black Sea for Ukraninan rump state leftovers so independence for Odessa / Nikolaev might be on the books (doubt Russians can take it by force or want to integrate Odessa/Nikolaev).


The most I can see from these is some kind of humanitarian provisions to guarantee water access for Crimea. The conditions aren't currently available for a total Russian victory like this.
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Oct 28 2024 09:08am
Quote (Thebarba @ 28 Oct 2024 15:54)
The most I can see from these is some kind of humanitarian provisions to guarantee water access for Crimea. The conditions aren't currently available for a total Russian victory like this.


Russians do not trust current govt of Ukraine which (in their opinion) is being held hostage by various nationalistic factions - hostile to Russian interests. Hence Russians would prefer to hold physical control of North Crimean Canal.
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Oct 28 2024 09:32am
If they want to annex Kher and Zap, they're probably going to need to get a lot more victory points so to speak. As in, marching into Kiev. Annexing Crimea Donesk Luhansk makes a whole lot of sense if you look at historical mediated partitions based on the language/nationality of the people who occupy those lands. But any more annexation than that goes into clear cut imperialistic occupation of a mostly unwilling populace. Even annexing Don is a tiny bit of a stretch considering they haven't even yet conquered the entire oblast yet.
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Oct 28 2024 09:46am
Quote (Thebarba @ Oct 28 2024 11:32am)
If they want to annex Kher and Zap, they're probably going to need to get a lot more victory points so to speak. As in, marching into Kiev. Annexing Crimea Donesk Luhansk makes a whole lot of sense if you look at historical mediated partitions based on the language/nationality of the people who occupy those lands. But any more annexation than that goes into clear cut imperialistic occupation of a mostly unwilling populace. Even annexing Don is a tiny bit of a stretch considering they haven't even yet conquered the entire oblast yet.


Kherson and Zap are also heavily Russian leaning and have been part of historical Novorossiya dating back to 1800. Why exactly would it be too big of an ask if they are already holding everything down from Dnipro anyways? Again they're negotiating from a position of strength and hold that territory. It would be a reach for Ukraine to say no you have to return these. The Russians can just turnaround and say no or what is Ukraine bargaining power here? The reality is the longer the war goes on, the more Ukraine has to lose territory wise. This reality hasn't changed from the beginning, that's why engaging in war instead of taking some form of peace in 2022 was so dumb.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Oct 28 2024 09:50am
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Oct 28 2024 09:50am
Quote (Thebarba @ 28 Oct 2024 16:32)
If they want to annex Kher and Zap, they're probably going to need to get a lot more victory points so to speak. As in, marching into Kiev. Annexing Crimea Donesk Luhansk makes a whole lot of sense if you look at historical mediated partitions based on the language/nationality of the people who occupy those lands. But any more annexation than that goes into clear cut imperialistic occupation of a mostly unwilling populace. Even annexing Don is a tiny bit of a stretch considering they haven't even yet conquered the entire oblast yet.


Here is an old map of votes for Yuschenko / Yanukovich which shows the old divide line.



This post was edited by Malopox on Oct 28 2024 09:53am
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Oct 28 2024 11:01am
Quote (Malopox @ 28 Oct 2024 16:50)
Here is an old map of votes for Yuschenko / Yanukovich which shows the old divide line.

https://i.imgur.com/eqlifmX.jpeg


That was 20 years ago and soooooooo much has happened since then.

At the beginning of the war, when Russia was invading Ukraine from 3 sides, there was no outpouring of support for the "Russian liberators" or anything like that in places like Kharkiv, Odessa or Zap. They resisted the Russian invasion like the rest of Ukraine did and from what I could gather, there were no mutinies, rogue mayors or pro-Russian public uprisings. Which stands in stark contrast to what happened when Putin's green men without badges showed up on Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk back in 2014, or to what happened in 2022 further in the south, for example in Melitopol.

Also, I'm sceptical that 3 years of shelling and bombs on these cities have endeared their residents to the Russian side. :rolleyes:

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 28 2024 11:02am
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