The invasion of Afghanistan was sufficiently justified. The country would also not be in a better place today if the NATO invasion had never happened and the country been governed by the Taliban for the past 23 years.

Iraq was a mistake, and was called out as such by a major protest movement before it even began. Several major Western countries, like France, Germany and Canada, outright refused to participate.
Syria was a clusterfuck all around, and would have been even without the CIA invovlement. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Russia also stirred the pot.

Libya is the other big blemish on the Western record (next to Iraq). But then again: the Libyan state is an artificial construct erected on top of a tribalist society without any unity or national identity. The only thing keeping it together was its dictator Gaddafi who ruled with an iron fist. After his death or ouster, the country was always bound to devolve into civil war and chaos. Also note that the Americans (and Germans, Italians etc.) didn't want to get involved there. The NATO mission in Libya predominantly happened at the insistence of the French and Brits, who dragged the US into this mess.

Why is this justified ? Because they didn't want to hand over a Saudi Wahhabi Citizen.
So if one day Mr Ching from China bomb a shopping district in Shanghai and he escape to USA and says he did it because CCP is oppressing his religion and USA don't release Mr Ching because of Human rights.
Should China start a war with USA ?

They all had an identity & purpose which we purposefully destroyed - that was Ba'athism, pan-Arabic national socialist identity. We did this because a united enemy is a dangerous enemy. Was this justified? In my pan-Anglo Imperialist opinion, yes. In the faux anti-Imperialist view of "democracy" that the US champions but does the exact opposite, no.

Historically, communist regimes haven't been fond of sovereign nations choosing their own path at all. When the people of Czechia, Hungary and East Germany wanted to stray from communism, Russian tanks came waltzing in and crushed such heresy with naked violence.

Neither international law nor morals require religious belief.



I, for my part, don't believe that NATO is always right. In fact, I'd say that most citizens in Western nations have a nuanced view of their own governments and NATO. Jingoistic giga-hawks like Proximity who view things in a strictly black and white fashion are definitely the minority.

There were and still are major anti-war protests. The merits of our involvement in wars like Iraq or Ukraine are publicly debated and course corrections fostered via elections. Just like it should be in a pluralistic democracy. You don't have comparable democratic control and feedback in places like Russia, China or Iran.

The Taliban hosted not only Osama himself, but major parts of his entire terrorist organization. For years, the Taliban had helped and abetted a terrorist group vowing death and destruction to the United States, then refused to hand over Osama even after 9/11. If a terrorist group had carried out a major terrorist attack in China, vowed further attacks and was hosted by a smaller country like, idk, Thailand, then I would definitely understand it if China went ahead and sent its military to tackle this threat.
(War between the US and China would of course be a different kind of beast and not something that should be triggered by any single man.)

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 8 2024 04:55pm

Absolutely, that is why Western communists nowadays always say "real communism hasn't been tried" because in their minds it hasn't, all those communist regimes were autocracies. Lying and sophistry is also endemic to communist ideology so you can't trust a thing.

Morals do require religious belief. Without it, morality reduces to a rather simple metric of pleasure vs. pain - pleasure is morally good, pain is morally bad. This perspective is why we are in such a bad place right now - there are instances where pleasure is morally bad (masturbation & gluttony) and where pain is morally good (exercise, medical intervention). And on top of that, when morals are reduced to pleasure vs. pain, what happens when an action results in one party receiving pleasure while the other receives pain? From the perspective of the one receiving pleasure, that action is morally good. From the perspective of the one receiving pain, it is morally bad. True morality can only be discerned from transcendent spiritual/religious enlightenment. One of the many pearls of wisdom that has been lost to the ages in this degenerate postmodern world. I would like to hear an argument that is contrary to this, the Greek philosophers had already demonstrated that morality in the absence of religion reduces to pleasure and pain.

I think most citizens are not free thinking people, and simply believe/follow what they are told by those whom they perceive as authority figures. Most people don't even have beliefs at all, they just persist (living in survival). I disagree that our involvement in wars is publicly debated - in reality, you will be censored and deplatformed from public squares if you argue for the "wrong" side. This only recently has changed with X/Twitter, where there now exists for the first time a public square that does not censor dissident views and beliefs.

Fair Enough, but you can't deny that the Taliban slowly took over from the Mujahideen after the USA left a power vacuum when they got rid of the Soviets.
Furthermore I do not think it is Justified at all to invade Afghanistan but that doesn't mean I do not know why they did that which at times is well founded.

Death and Destruction, look lets be honest, this is a Muslim problem and a Muslim problem that spreads far and wide.
Terrorist don't appear overnight, there must be a period or a long period of time that they feel their people ( Islamic Kinship) are oppressed or so badly treated that they start becoming freedom fighters and in the end Terrorists.

This is more than just a religious problem when it comes to terrorism. It is a combination and cocktail of Religion, Ethnic and Nationalism basically a recipe for disaster.
The same reason why they wish destruction to America or the West and in most recent years the destruction of China ( Turk Ethnic Uighur Muslims ) , is the same reason why the West or America want to destroy them and in this case for China putting them into holiday camps to re educate them.

Just to add, if a terrorist group is allowed to carry out a major terrorist attack in China, it means their government is wholly incompetent. Well we don't see much attack now anymore in China, It doesn't happen too much in India either.

Perhaps that is also the reason why Blinken was outright telling it to India Public Television live that the West and USA is extremely concern about Mod's government repression of Muslim.

And on the other hand getting you guys to sanction Xinjiang Products because you believe they are oppressing Muslims.

This is all Geo Politics. If India were to stand right by the West at the moment against the Russians. There will be zero Muslim oppression in India.
If China were to stand right by the West at the moment and give their oil and gas and mineral resources to the West in Xinjiang. The Uighur Muslims will turn from freedom fighters and oppressed group overnight to terrorist.

It is what it is.

You're also conveniently leaving out the forced sterilizations of Uighur women, which is basically a soft form of genocide. Not killing anybody, but still ensuring that the next generation of Uighurs will be much smaller, so that the problem simply vanishes within 2-3 generations. Not sure if I should shudder at the ruthless efficiency of the CCP in handling this matter or applaud it.

But yeah, I agree that Muslims as a group seem to be particularly prone to breeding terrorism and militancy. Whether it's in Africa, Europe, the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent or East Asia - all these places see persistent conflicts between Muslims and non-Muslims.



I guess India got its shit together after the huge attacks in Mumbai in 2008 and 2011. China is of course a police state with pervasive surveillance.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 8 2024 06:30pm

Maybe you should check out the sterilization of Ethopian Jews.
If there is such a thing as force sterilization their population would have diminished significantly.

Most of these information coming from Adrian Zenz is as good as listening to Gordon Chang or Peter Zeihan on global politics.