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Oct 8 2024 11:49am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 8 Oct 2024 19:11)
Who wants to eradicate Russia or steal their resources? This war is fought because Russia invaded another ountry. Or, to phrase it from a different angle: because NATO doesn't accept Russia's direct or implicit claim that Ukraine shall be its vassal state and only enjoy very limited sovereignty. The only source of any kind of moral grey area in this matter is that Ukraine itself is internally torn between a pro-Western and a pro-Russian side.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfowitz_Doctrine

Only one country can truly end this war once and for all. Until they decide it’s over, men and women will keep dying.

This post was edited by Malopox on Oct 8 2024 11:55am
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Oct 8 2024 11:50am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Oct 8 2024 10:25am)
Not one inch eastward has been memory holed in we were always at war with east Asia 1984 esque fashion. But to be expected when we are storybook good guys and everyone of our geopolitical enemies are always the anti-heroes. Shit, we can fuck up 5 countries in a 20 year time frame and no one cares, no sanctions, no nothing, while our geopolitical enemies doing the same to one country are viewed as evil oppressor incarnate. I guess if we spam 'unprovoked' enough time on western airwaves it must be true.


The "unprovoked" constant repetition is propaganda 101. They just repeat, repeat, repeat, even though it's entirely false. It's equivalent to the "without evidence" propaganda shoved down your throat whenever they talk about when Trump says.

It's just lazy propaganda, like they're not even trying. Just flat out blatantly lying over and over again hoping to hold onto their control.

This post was edited by El1te on Oct 8 2024 11:50am
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Oct 8 2024 11:51am
Ramstein meeting on Ukraine up in air after Biden cancels trip to Germany

The German official reiterated Scholz's readiness for talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin, provided that they offer a prospect for progress on the way to a just and sustainable peace, but warned Russia to not interpret this as weakness.

Source: Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/world/ramstein-summit-with-biden-send-kyiv-message-support-says-german-official-2024-10-08/

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Oct 8 2024 11:55am
Quote (El1te @ Oct 8 2024 01:50pm)
The "unprovoked" constant repetition is propaganda 101. They just repeat, repeat, repeat, even though it's entirely false. It's equivalent to the "without evidence" propaganda shoved down your throat whenever they talk about when Trump says.

It's just lazy propaganda, like they're not even trying. Just flat out blatantly lying over and over again hoping to hold onto their control.


There's more than a few of these.

"Anonymous sources" was another fan favorite used to basically say whatever they wanted.
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Oct 8 2024 11:57am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Oct 8 2024 10:55am)
There's more than a few of these.

"Anonymous sources" was another fan favorite used to basically say whatever they wanted.


Oh that's a good one. Code for "we made it up" :lol: Alot of "anonymous sources" saying that Trump is a bad bad man.
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Oct 8 2024 12:02pm
Quote (Norlander @ Oct 8 2024 10:51am)
Ramstein meeting on Ukraine up in air after Biden cancels trip to Germany
The German official reiterated Scholz's readiness for talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin, provided that they offer a prospect for progress on the way to a just and sustainable peace, but warned Russia to not interpret this as weakness.

Source: Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/world/ramstein-summit-with-biden-send-kyiv-message-support-says-german-official-2024-10-08/


Narrator: "It is weakness."
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Oct 8 2024 12:32pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ 8 Oct 2024 19:25)
Not one inch eastward has been memory holed in we were always at war with east Asia 1984 esque fashion. But to be expected when we are storybook good guys and everyone of our geopolitical enemies are always the anti-heroes. Shit, we can fuck up 5 countries in a 20 year time frame and no one cares, no sanctions, no nothing, while our geopolitical enemies doing the same to one country are viewed as evil oppressor incarnate. I guess if we spam 'unprovoked' enough time on western airwaves it must be true.


That's a highly misleading framing. First, the West having screwed up in Iraq and Afghanistan doesn't logically imply that it is in the wrong with regard to Ukraine. Second, the West had let Russia get away with annexing Crimea and having its proxy forces take over Donetsk and Luhansk. We only imposed inconsequential, perfunctory sanctions for that. This inaction was a tacit admission by the West that Russia had some point back in 2014, that the situation was murky enough, and that the pro-Russian provinces of Ukraine should probably be allowed to secede if/when the west of the country moves toward the EU/NATO.

The 'unprovoked' claim mostly refers to the situation in 2021 and 2022, when the conflict was at low intensity and the status quo was rather stable. Launching a full-scale invasion in this specific situation, at this specific point in time, was unprovoked/uncalled for.
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Oct 8 2024 12:38pm
Quote (Malopox @ 8 Oct 2024 19:49)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfowitz_Doctrine

Only one country can truly end this war once and for all. Until they decide it’s over, men and women will keep dying.

If the US pulls the plug on Ukraine, the war will end with a Russian victory. Ukraine will probably continue fighting desperately, men and women will keep dying, and then they will eventually be forced to accept a dictated peace which amounts to unconditional surrender. Not exactly what I would call a good outcome.

Furthermore, Russia can of course also end this war. All they need to do is stop shelling Ukrainian cities and advancing forward. If Russia sits back where they currently are, this war will quickly end. Ukraine is running on fumes and the population is war-weary, as is the Western public.
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Oct 8 2024 12:40pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 9 Oct 2024 01:11)
1. This war is 1. fought because Russia invaded another country.Or, to phrase it from a different angle: because 2. NATO doesn't accept Russia's direct or implicit claim that Ukraine shall be its vassal state and only enjoy very limited sovereignty. The only source of any kind of 3.moral grey area in this matter is that Ukraine itself is internally torn between a pro-Western and a pro-Russian side.



1. If you think this is only about resources it is a far too simple point of view. The resource is a Huge Bonus not the main reason.
Yes and No. This war is fought because Russia do not want NATO influence in Ukraine / Crimea (Black Sea). Russia might make some noise with Finland joining NATO. But they are concern since it's not strategic to them.

2. That is NATO's problem and if they can't accept, war starts.

3. There is no moral grey area, neither side have any morals in regards this current situation.

This post was edited by Hamsterbaby on Oct 8 2024 12:42pm
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Oct 8 2024 12:42pm
Quote (Hamsterbaby @ 8 Oct 2024 20:40)
Quote
3. NATO doesn't accept Russia's direct or implicit claim that Ukraine shall be its vassal state and only enjoy very limited sovereignty

3. That is NATO's problem and if they can't accept, war starts.

Do you not believe in the concept of sovereign nations at all, only in "might makes right"?
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