Quote (El1te @ Oct 4 2024 09:45pm)

I don't mean to be one sided, but to take a rational unbiased observation of all events possible to determine a truthful conclusion. I recognize some terms in my post here had pro-Russia framing such as violent coup when I should have just said coup again here. And about the alleged attempted 2005 assassination, how many Russians have the Ukrainians assassinated or tried? Without that information, it's a meaningless discussion.

I generally agree with the chronological events as you have described them, but I have issues with your framing as you are guilty here of being one-sided as well. Labelling legitimate & lawful police officers as "secret police" is an unfair framing that attempts to delegitimize them, they were a lawful tactical police force who were enforcing the laws & obeying the lawful government. There are many instances in your post of one-sided framing - violating a campaign promise isn't an act of war and isn't illegal - it's standard practice literally everywhere. He had lawful veto powers, period. Saying it was at the behest of his "overlords" is a clear example of biased illogical framing - you have no proof that he did those actions in service of an overlord. To your bolded sentence, this was under violent coercion. No shit they all voted one way, or else they and their families get the bullet. Events as you have described them accurately explain why democracy failed in this situation: the country was incredibly polarized with relatively equal representation. However, Yanukovych was lawfully elected and the coup was illegal, this is a matter of fact. And he was forced out of the country not via the ballot box, but through violence, where he was coerced. This isn't democracy, it's just the natural law of the human condition. After all, Otto von Bismarck was right, the important questions are not solved via a parliament but in the crucible of war, blood and iron.

However, since the new Ukrainian regime was okay with using violence to get its way instead of through the ballot box, Russia is responding in kind. You logically cannot fault them for that, if one side decides the rules of the game don't matter then you can't fault the other player for responding in kind. And given the right of conquest, Russia has full rights to conquer the land if they have the ability and will to do so. And it is very clear to me that Russia decided to attack in 2022 because of the hilarious botched Afghanistan withdrawal. Blood in the water, then was the time to strike.

All in all to say, the Ukrainian-Russia fight is their fight, not ours. They want to fight the Russian bear, have at it. Many have tried and many have failed, I'm not interested. Russians can be bad guys but the Ukrainian nationalists are literally classical Nazis. But don't expect me to be fine with sending my money there. They are a semi-foreign civilization. The Orthodox church hasn't been in communion with the Western church(s) for a long long time. The only reason to be involved is to maintain an Imperial hegemony, nothing else. Which I would be okay with if we actually had a proper Imperial regime with proper dynastic rule, but we don't, we have a degenerate oligarchy run by gay pedophiles.