The "Russia leaves if that is the will of the people"-part was always sketchy. Also, what do you do if the referendum produces a result like 55:45 in either direction? What do you do if the Russian officials controlling these places hinder and sabotage the UN watchdogs?

That ship has sailed now anyway since the populations self-sorted: tons of pro-Western Ukrainians from the annexed regions fled to the government-controlled parts of Ukraine, or to the West; many pro-Russian inhabitants fled to Russia or stayed in place. So doing a referendum with the present-day population of Donetsk or Luhansk oblasts would be a foregone conclusion.



That's a question you should ask Putin...

You at least used to try and sound respectable, you've become djunior light.

UK oiler getting blown up by flying lawn mower. Drones have single handedly become the greatest war equalizer. We’re how many months in of houthis getting bombed and this is still happening ?

https://x.com/bgatesisapyscho/status/1841931954846924875?s=46

Wasn't that already kind of the case not long after the Maidan, long before the invasion or annexation? They were already fighting a civil war, there was a clear polarization of west and east ukraine. We have everyone reason to think the referendums that were actually held, actually represented the overwhelming popular sentiment.

We've long gone on about what the 'will of the people' really means when a democracy is overthrown by a minority who take power by force. The illegitimacy of the revolution aside, we still have to beg the question of what makes East Ukraine so unlike all the disenfranchised, subjugated populations that exist without self-determination in so many other countries. The Tibetans, the Uighers, the Palestinians, the Kurds, Kashmir. What is the factor that makes Americans sympathize with one and abhor another, what makes a group entitled to their democratic rule and others deserve oppression? The separatist regions of Ukraine aren't terrorists seeking to carve an ethnic territory out of a democratic country, they are the majority who had their country stolen away and war waged against them. Nor are the separatists a helpless oppressed minority living at the mercy of nationalist masters, they are winning their war.

Do the liberals of today really want a world in which an imperalist foreign power funds a proxy war to subjugate a democratic country and impose their will at swordpoint? Demanding the surrender and occupation of a country who want their own self-determination or alliance with a power that will represent them democracy? Does anyone still believe total bullshit about 'liberating' the east from people who have been locked in civil war for a decade?

I ask what makes one group deserve our sympathies and not another

The whole situation in Ukraine had already gone beyond the breaking point with the Maidan, yes. Still, a lot of the protests during the "Russian spring" on Crimea and the Donbass were astroturfed and fostered by Russian agents, so if one considers the Euromaidan astroturfed and illicitly pushed by the CIA or w/e, then the same arguments also apply to the pro-Russian protests in the southeastern oblasts. Anyway, the point is that the political climate in the separatist oblasts was no longer free and all public structures and institutions were already in the hand of Russia-aligned separatists by the time the referendums took place.

Yes, even fully free and legitimate referendums would presumably have produced a majority for Russia, but it makes a difference whether the separatist and pro-Russian forces win with 90% approval or 55%...




The Tibetans, Uighurs, Palestinians and Kurds all deserve their own state or at least a high degree of autonomy. In the case of the Palestinians, they can't get it because they're acting like rabid dogs and continue to be dedicated to the eradication of their neighbor Israel.

The same also applies to the separatist regions of Ukraine. The reason why the situation was never able to fully stablize is that both sides kept insisting on territorial claims which stretched far beyond the 2014-2021 status quo: Ukraine's government didn't want to give up its claim to Crimea and the Donbass, Russia didn't want to settle for what they had and kept claiming further parts of south-eastern Ukraine.

Nonetheless, the status quo of a frozen conflict was somewhat palatable and far better than the hot war we have now as a result of Russia's decision to invade all of Ukraine. All of this tragedy wouldn't happen if Russia hadn't decided at some point in 2021 or early 2022 to take what they want with sheer force. And I, for my part, still don't see the concrete reason or justification for why Russia/Putin pulled the trigger in 2021/early 2022.



As to the question why we care more about the conflict in Ukraine than about the plight of the Kurds or the Tibetians: because it's a conflict which is much closer to us, both politically and geographically. Ukraine directly borders the EU, it was/is a candidate for EU membership, crucial pipelines for Europe's energy supply went through the country, its economy is far more integrated with Europe's, and so on and forth. That's why we are willing to get involved in this conflict while we aren't in Tibet or Northern Iraq and Syria.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 4 2024 06:14am

LOL

I'm that guy pointing out at the beginning that there should be negotiations, you're that guy saying that it's a nice testing ground.

Keep up the shit posts and I'll keep reminding you comrade

Negotiations should have taken place before Russian tanks waltzed into Ukraine. Now, after the fact, calls for Ukraine to engage in negotiations at gunpoint are essentially just a fancy way to call for their unconditional surrender.

And another one, lol

I've pointed out many times that NATO wasn't even willing to start negotiations. A non-starter.

But hey keep it up

The head of the Ukrainian museum of Holodomor was rejected in court in response to a complaint about harassment because of her weight: her appearance was called «unsuitable» for this position

Lawyer Klim Bratkowski said that the Ukrainian Lesya Hasijak could not head the institution due to her appearance.

The appearance of Miss Lesya is inappropriate compared to the museum of the Holodomor, it looks either as a mockery or comic.

Bratkowski believes that the head of the museum should be «a military man who knows about hunger». The court rejected Hasijak’s claim for protection of honor and dignity.

NATO are not fighting the war. This guy can't help himself.