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Nov 22 2019 06:19am
Quote (fender @ 22 Nov 2019 12:23)
the problem with polands stance is not that they merely 'welcome things that are positive for their people' - i've got news for you: everyone does that, and that's completely ok - the problem is that they benefit like no other country from the EU, yet opt out of every single responsibility they can.


So? Guess what, most countries dont share the idealism of the EU proponents, they just want the EU to be an institution which facilitates mutually beneficial things (no tariffs within the EU, bundling economic power to negotiate better trade deals with Canada/Japan/South America) without wanting to participate in the "political project"-parts of the EU. Countries like Poland dont share the goal of an "ever closer union" which has the obvious endgoal of abolishing all nation states as sovereign entities by merging them into "United States of Europe". They want the EU to just be an economic project, like the EU's predecessor, the European Economic Community (EEC).

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dishonestly suggesting that all migration from africa and the middle east is merely 'poverty migration' also doesn't help - especially given polands own recent history of 'poverty migration' into the west, which just adds to the hypocrisy.


I'm not saying that all of this migration is driven by poverty. What I meant is that this immigration will, irrespective from its origin (war, natural disasters, poverty), always constitute immigration of poverty/poor people. No matter if these people are fleeing from violence or a dire economic situation, they will be a drag on their European host nation. Which is also the difference to the Polish poverty migration: some of the Polish migrants were a drag, yes, but the Western European countries also got a decent amount of highly qualified people from Poland. On aggregate, the Polish immigrants in Western Europe at least "hold their weight". Cant say the same about Somali/Afghan/etc immigrants, where the overwhelming majority are net transfer recipients instead of net tax payers.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Nov 22 2019 06:19am
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Nov 22 2019 05:34pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 22 Nov 2019 00:55)
Interesting stats. Some random thoughts:

- regarding reform vs revolution: I think it depends a lot on the historical experience with reforms and revolution within the various countries. France and Germany have experienced reforms which were quite bad for ordinary people in recent years, so support for this approach is muted. Austria, Italy, Germany and Spain have made some very bad experiences with political revolutions, so people in these countries are more against it than the youth of countries with successful revolutions (France, Poland).


- regarding the "nationals should be preferred over foreigners" question: Spain is really the outlier in this regard. Is it perhaps because you have very limited social security compared with the other countries, so that treating citizens and foreigners equally amounts to less of a "devaluation of citizenship/destruction of privileges"?



well, germany, austria and france are the major destination of the non-EU migrants arriving in Europe. they bear the brunt of the burden in the long run, so they imho are more outspoken in their rejection of this type of migration. a larger share of their population wants to reduce the burden that has to be shouldered versus insisting on a quota solution which has already proven to be politically infeasible. that Spain and Italy, the countries of first arrival, prefer a quota solution doesnt surprise me.



Not surprising. Poland is one of the few countries in the Western world where a significant chunk of the population has seen a big jump in their economic situation/standard of living thanks to capitalism/hard work in recent years. Elsewhere, the young generation tends to be more sceptical of capitalism, probably due to the experience with high youth unemployment, student loan debt, paltry wages for entry-level jobs, untenable rent in big cities with job opportunities, and of course the big "innocence lost"-experience during the great recession of 2009.


Well, like I've said in other occasions, most immigrants are well integrated here. Especially the kids of immigrants... it's not like in other European countries were they live in ghetto's for life and you see 4th generation nationals still identifying as citizens of whatever country their great grandparents came from.

I very often see kids and teenagers... Spaniards, Latin Americans, Chinese, Moroccans, Romanians... they mix into the the same group and act like any homogeneous group of Spaniards would. It wouldn't make much sense if a society of Spaniards that grew up in this environment would believe that his best friend Ahmed from 5th grade or his first girlfriend Mei Ling, who worked just as hard as him in school, should be treated as second class citizens.

The only serious pressure immigration puts on our social services is in regards to things like public nursery schools, where are somewhat saturated despite our low birth rates and can sometimes require the parents to wait a few months before they can let enroll their kid. Although this of course isn't generally a concern for people in their 20s, which is the poll's sample. The percentage of people in favour of equal treatment would shrink if people from older age groups were asked about this... but I wouldn't be surprised if they still kept a majority in most working age age groups.
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Nov 23 2019 06:17am


That disparity by voting age stratification... it's like a perfect scale :LOL:
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Nov 23 2019 07:33am
Quote (zarkadon @ Nov 23 2019 01:17pm)
https://electomania.es/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/yougov2-900x606.png

That disparity by voting age stratification... it's like a perfect scale :LOL:


The disparity is really only present for the 2 major parties though. The others are fairly equally represented amongst age groups.
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Nov 23 2019 11:40am
Quote (balrog66 @ 23 Nov 2019 14:33)
The disparity is really only present for the 2 major parties though. The others are fairly equally represented amongst age groups.


Which is kinda surprising me. With the youth being strongly for Remain and Labour being so lukewarm and wobbly on the issue, I expected more young voters to lean toward the LibDems.

Btw, here is a site that looks at more granular and district-level data to project actual seats:
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

Probably more relevant than national vote share projections.
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Nov 24 2019 07:13am


France says Abu Dhabi to host HQ for European naval mission for the Gulf

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-emirates-france/france-says-abu-dhabi-to-host-hq-for-european-naval-mission-for-the-gulf-idUSKBN1XY0AO

Quote
ABU DHABI (Reuters) - A French naval base in Abu Dhabi will serve as the headquarters for a European-led mission to protect Gulf waters that will be operational soon, France’s defense minister said on Sunday.

France is the main proponent of a plan to build a European-led maritime force to ensure safe shipping in the Strait of Hormuz after tanker attacks earlier this year that Washington blamed on Iran.




Well this should really further confuse things in the Gulf.
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Nov 24 2019 10:09am
Quote (Ghot @ 24 Nov 2019 14:13)
France says Abu Dhabi to host HQ for European naval mission for the Gulf

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-emirates-france/france-says-abu-dhabi-to-host-hq-for-european-naval-mission-for-the-gulf-idUSKBN1XY0AO





Well this should really further confuse things in the Gulf.


No, because they are working with U.S (Considering U.S are not trying to spread chaos in the area of course.)

This post was edited by Saucisson6000 on Nov 24 2019 10:09am
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Nov 24 2019 02:31pm
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Nov 24 2019 11:09am)
No, because they are working with U.S (Considering U.S are not trying to spread chaos in the area of course.)




I guess you folk figured the US needed... help? :D
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Nov 24 2019 03:11pm
Quote (zarkadon @ Nov 23 2019 07:17am)
https://electomania.es/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/yougov2-900x606.png

That disparity by voting age stratification... it's like a perfect scale :LOL:


yeap. everyone's a liberal until they grow up
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Nov 24 2019 03:18pm
Quote (Ghot @ 24 Nov 2019 21:31)
I guess you folk figured the US needed... help? :D


Or maybe it's just a monitoring station to ensure dumbfucks are doing things properly ?
Now get good.
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