d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev1435943604361436243634364Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 51,598
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,400.67
Jun 27 2024 02:12am
Quote (Malopox @ 27 Jun 2024 09:16)
1) Your statement is correct, the right for nuclear retaliation is indeed defined vaguely in Russian military doctrine.

2) You know what is truly ludicrous? Shelling nuclear stations hoping to cause an accident.


Take a look at where Enerhodar is located on a map of Ukraine - it would be a disaster of epic proportions for Ukraine if that nuclear power plant had a Tchernobyl-like accident.
Also, that plant is unfortunately on the wrong side of the Dnieper river, even if Ukrainian forces were able to regain control of the plant, they couldn't hold it in the long run.
Member
Posts: 66,451
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Jun 27 2024 04:59am
Quote (Goomshill @ Jun 27 2024 05:52am)
The people living in Crimea today overwhelmingly support Russia, are ethnic Russians, speak Russian, follow the Russian orthodox church or are Russian citizens. In the 2014 Crimean referendum they voted 97% to integrate into Russia
Just as any Russian force occupying Kiev would be subjugating a hostile populace, any Ukrainian force trying to invade and hold Crimea would be conquerors, not liberators.
This is a simple fact you consistently refuse to recognize, the DPR/LPR/Crimea all have been fighting a civil war against east Ukraine after they were disenfranchised and overthrown in a coup d'etat, they align with Russia willingly and fervently.


This also follows a consistent pattern I've seen in NATO proxy wars and interventions, which is to simply lie about the motives and beliefs of the people they are getting killed. Shades of the whole "pro democracy sunni militias". The west has allied itself with actual modern day Nazis while declaring the people who are fighting against them are really just oppressed by their tyrants and would defect to us if not for fear of their master's whips. And somehow I'm stuck being one of the few ideologically consistent liberals when I point it out


Crimea is better in the hands of Ukraine, purging Ukrainians, oppressing Tatars, and moving in alot of russians does not make Crimea russian. On the contrary.

Or maybe it's time for US to concede territory to Mexico. CANCER TALK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars

This regime has to be erradicated.

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Jun 27 2024 05:01am
Member
Posts: 46,143
Joined: Jan 20 2010
Gold: 22,184.49
Jun 27 2024 05:08am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Jun 27 2024 05:59am)
Crimea is better in the hands of Ukraine, purging Ukrainians, oppressing Tatars, and moving in alot of russians does not make Crimea russian. On the contrary.
Or maybe it's time for US to concede territory to Mexico. CANCER TALK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars
This regime has to be erradicated.


You're talking about a purge that happened in 1944 not 2014. When the banderites overthrew the government, the population of Crimea already overwhelmingly supported Russia, as they had supported Yanukovych in their previous election, and would support Putin in the next.
What you're calling for is itself a genocide, an ethnic cleansing of Crimea to kill all the people loyal to Russia, which is most of them.


This isn't really hard to understand or grapple with. The people in west ukraine support the west, the people in east ukraine support russia. They used to have a government that represented both these groups, until the westerners overthrew it. If you want west ukraine to seize Crimea and eradicate all the Russians, you're just calling for another Nazi-style purge of a subjugated populace. And once again, I take that bare minimum position of decency of opposing genocide and opposing Nazism
Member
Posts: 66,451
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Jun 27 2024 05:19am
Quote (Goomshill @ Jun 27 2024 01:08pm)
You're talking about a purge that happened in 1944 not 2014. When the banderites overthrew the government, the population of Crimea already overwhelmingly supported Russia, as they had supported Yanukovych in their previous election, and would support Putin in the next.
What you're calling for is itself a genocide, an ethnic cleansing of Crimea to kill all the people loyal to Russia, which is most of them.
This isn't really hard to understand or grapple with. The people in west ukraine support the west, the people in east ukraine support russia. They used to have a government that represented both these groups, until the westerners overthrew it. If you want west ukraine to seize Crimea and eradicate all the Russians, you're just calling for another Nazi-style purge of a subjugated populace. And once again, I take that bare minimum position of decency of opposing genocide and opposing Nazism



Ruscism must be erradicated:

https://theconversation.com/ten-years-since-its-annexation-crimea-serves-as-a-grim-warning-to-any-ukrainian-lands-that-fall-under-russian-occupation-226270


On the peninsular itself, life has changed profoundly. The “land of milk and honey” promised to the population of Crimea at the time of annexation has not materialised. International sanctions, high prices and increasing uncertainty have left the mainstay of the economy, tourism, in the doldrums. And the democratic freedoms that existed under Ukraine have disappeared, not only for the Ukrainian and Tatar populations, but for the Russians too.

Russification of Crimea is not an ad hoc policy imposed after the occupation. It is rooted in the ideology of Russkii MIr (“Russian World”). This concept, which is espoused by Putin, is itself part of a long historical tradition going back to the annexation of the Crimea by Catherine the Great in 1783.

The Russian World ideology insists that Russia is a supra-national civilisation that extends far beyond the present borders of the Russian Federation to include Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan and other parts of the former Soviet Union. At the same time, the ideology is intolerant of any other expression of identity within its sphere and justifies the elimination of that identity, as is taking place in Crimea.

The Imperial Russian state (1721–1917), the Soviet State (1917–1991) and now the Russian Federation under Putin have at different times all sought to Russify the population of the Crimean peninsular. The Imperial government encouraged the migration of Tatars from the peninsular and Stalin completed the process in 1944 by deporting the entire Tatar population – some 200,000 people.

A partial return took place under Krushchev (premier of of the Soviet Union between 1958 and 1964), which greatly accelerated when the Crimea became part of a democratic Ukraine. Putin has now reversed that policy, seeking the destruction of both the Tatar and Ukrainian identities.
Eradicating non-Russian identity

Putin swore to safeguard the different national traditions that existed in Crimea when he launched the annexation. These promises were broken immediately and have continued to be broken ever since.

Ukrainian and Tatar languages have been suppressed, political activists arrested and any expression of cultural identity other than Russian is forbidden. The national body of the Crimean Tatars, the Mejlis, has been suppressed and all other representative institutions are a sham, as those in Russia itself.

Religious persecution against the Ukrainians and the Tatars, which is actively assisted by the Russian Orthodox Church, is also an essential part of the Russification policies.

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Jun 27 2024 05:20am
Member
Posts: 37,684
Joined: Nov 16 2005
Gold: 13.37
Jun 27 2024 06:08am
Quote
A partial return (of Crimea) took place under Krushchev (premier of of the Soviet Union between 1958 and 1964), which greatly accelerated when the Crimea became part of a democratic Ukraine


Can you name a leader of the democratic Ukraine in 1960's?
Member
Posts: 8,395
Joined: Mar 2 2006
Gold: 3,971.00
Jun 27 2024 06:09am
Quote (Norlander @ 27 Jun 2024 14:08)
Can you name a leader of the democratic Ukraine in 1960's?


Khrushev
Member
Posts: 4,123
Joined: May 16 2024
Gold: 6,664.00
Jun 27 2024 04:44pm
Russia rapist and war criminal get North Korea rapist and war criminal reinforcement soon? For sure many will try use this opportunity to run away from Kim regime..
Member
Posts: 25,700
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 12,127.00
Jun 28 2024 11:38am
Material shift in posturing out of Ukraine, which IMO is at least in part due to the political winds of change, both in US and Europe. If Trump wins, there's most likely going to be some ultimatum/forced settlement with dollars drying up significantly or Euros fully understanding that the financial burden may be shifted towards them, so are doing a little preventative measures in lobbying for peace. We'll see if this is another unrealistic wish list or it's actually a real proposed compromise that takes Russia's demands into consideration.

Quote
Ukraine’s Zelenskyy charting ‘comprehensive plan’ to end war with Russia
Ukrainian president says as the war rages and casualties mount, a plan to end the 28-month conflict is ‘the diplomatic route we are working on’.

Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says he’s drawing up a “comprehensive plan” for how Kyiv believes the war with Russia should end.

“It is very important for us to show a plan to end the war that will be supported by the majority of the world,” the Ukrainian president said at a news conference in Kyiv alongside Slovenian President Natasa Pirc Musar on Friday.


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/28/ukraines-zelenskyy-charting-comprehensive-plan-to-end-war-with-russia
Member
Posts: 66,451
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Jun 28 2024 12:40pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Jun 28 2024 07:38pm)
Material shift in posturing out of Ukraine, which IMO is at least in part due to the political winds of change, both in US and Europe. If Trump wins, there's most likely going to be some ultimatum/forced settlement with dollars drying up significantly or Euros fully understanding that the financial burden may be shifted towards them, so are doing a little preventative measures in lobbying for peace. We'll see if this is another unrealistic wish list or it's actually a real proposed compromise that takes Russia's demands into consideration.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/28/ukraines-zelenskyy-charting-comprehensive-plan-to-end-war-with-russia



Here what he really says:

Zelensky's 10-point peace formula includes Russia's full withdrawal from Ukraine and prosecution of war crimes, among other steps.

The plan envisages preventing ecocide in Ukraine, punishing those responsible for war crimes, withdrawing all Russian troops from the territory of Ukraine, restoration of Ukraine's territorial integrity, and the release of all prisoners of war and deportees. The proposals also call for ensuring energy security, food security, and nuclear safety.

https://kyivindependent.com/yermak-ukraine-ready-to-create-new-joint-peace-plan-based-on-zelenskys-formula/
https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-17/
https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-outlines-to-g-20-summit-ukraines-peace-plan/

=> Who can trust these savages anyway ? Not a single human person should LOL we are all agree that Russia will NEVER respect any peace treaty.

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Jun 28 2024 12:41pm
Member
Posts: 33,921
Joined: Jul 2 2007
Gold: 633.87
Jun 28 2024 12:52pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ Jun 28 2024 02:40pm)
Here what he really says:

Zelensky's 10-point peace formula includes Russia's full withdrawal from Ukraine and prosecution of war crimes, among other steps.

The plan envisages preventing ecocide in Ukraine, punishing those responsible for war crimes, withdrawing all Russian troops from the territory of Ukraine, restoration of Ukraine's territorial integrity, and the release of all prisoners of war and deportees. The proposals also call for ensuring energy security, food security, and nuclear safety.

https://kyivindependent.com/yermak-ukraine-ready-to-create-new-joint-peace-plan-based-on-zelenskys-formula/
https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-17/
https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-outlines-to-g-20-summit-ukraines-peace-plan/

=> Who can trust these savages anyway ? Not a single human person should LOL we are all agree that Russia will NEVER respect any peace treaty.


Yes, but intelligent observers know that Zelensky's "10 point peace formula" is a unserious wish list not worth a second of talking about. Russia will not accept the loss of the territories they currently hold, and Ukraine does not possess the ability to drive Russia out of Ukraine. At this rate, Zelensky will be assasimated or lynched and Ukraine will cease to exist except as a rump state under defacto Russian control. It's time to negotiate while Ukraine still has a frontline and an army.
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1435943604361436243634364Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll