d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev1433143324333433443354473Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 14,677
Joined: Jun 27 2010
Gold: 100,701.50
Jun 13 2024 01:23pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Jun 13 2024 09:18pm)
And im sure that's a serious redline, as compared to the US greenlighting a coup, recognizing the new govt the next day, saying publicly ukraine was joining nato via khamala, pumping in billions in weapons to keep them afloat, blowing up nordstream, and trying to get the entire world to sanction them.....

lets be real, we're in a proxy war with russia, so you think they'll launch a nuke because we gave them missile guidance? puh-leeze. even with the missiles russia will still win, why fire a nuke if you're winning? if you're not talking about nukes, see my previous post and respond to that instead of a non sequitur.


Again, I'm not the one talking about nukes, you do

I think this could lead to a global conflict if China eventually gets involved (hopefully not)

I think it will stay conventional with China + Russia combined banking on their massive production capacity

I think it will get ugly and very costly for both sides
Member
Posts: 91,061
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,504.69
Jun 13 2024 01:29pm
Quote (Djunior @ Jun 13 2024 01:23pm)
Again, I'm not the one talking about nukes, you do

I think this could lead to a global conflict if China eventually gets involved (hopefully not)

I think it will stay conventional with China + Russia combined banking on their massive production capacity

I think it will get ugly and very costly for both sides


You're so close. "it will be costly to both sides and end up badly for everyone", but you're also convinced it will happen. these aren't mentally ill hobos with knives, they're politicians aided by intelligence agencies who want to retain both power and wealth. mutually assured destruction, whether conventional or nuclear, is a non-starter.

and russia is winning, that should make you happy. they'll win, which should make you happy. you've been shouting it from the rooftops since long before it was a foregone conclusion and still a likely outcome. why pull the US in proper on the precipice of victory, 1 year away from a potential trump win where he'll hand you a great treaty? because of missile guiding systems? silly.
Member
Posts: 52,259
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,404.67
Jun 13 2024 01:34pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ 13 Jun 2024 18:08)
No, it actually was not inevitable. Russia is inherently a more European country. In the way they look, dress, culturally, most Russians live in western Russia not that far from European countries, most really want to access Europe for shopping, to buy cars, for tourism, and so on. 15 years ago, it was a match made in heaven, Europe gets a massive amount of it's energy from Russia, while Russia gets western goods and consumerism and increased standards of living. Europe as a whole was a much more valuable trading partner, simply due to proximity and where most Russians actually live and where their country is most developed. But then we (the US) decided we should encroach and gobble up these peripheral ex-soviet states, for no real good reason other than to inch closer militarily to them.

The real economic blocks of today should have been US, China and Europe. Instead our actions made it that it's mainly US and China (maybe India eventually). In all of this EU (with largely German economic leadership and Russian raw resources) could have been an actual center of power. Instead Europe today is a stagnating economic bloc, not able to compete with China and the US, so it's relegated as basically being the junior western partner with US being the big bro.

The Eastern European countries weren't encroached and gobbled up by the US/the West, they came voluntarily. It was them who wanted to join NATO, wanted to join the EU. In many cases, we let them wait longer than they themselves would have wanted, e.g. Romania and Bulgaria joining the common market. Ukraine is the tragic fringe case because it, unlike its more western neighbors, was roughly evenly split between pro-West and pro-Russia forces.

Of course it would have made more sense economically for Russia to become a part of a European power block, but their actual industry is far too dilapidated to keep up with the EU. In such a partnership, they would have been relegated to being the provider of commodities, to being the proverbial gas station. And on the political level, Russia would always have wanted to retain a sphere of influence in the Caucasus and Central Asia. And of course the inner repression and authoritarianism. So the tension between Russia being a useful provider of resources and diametrically opposed to our political values would have existed in all scenarios.

In a de facto dictatorship, where the ruling class (Putin and the oligarchs) is insulated from the fallout of the economic misery of the populace, the political priorities (opposed to Europe's) were always gonna trump the economic priorities (aligned with Europe).





Quote
You want one of the more obvious indicators that the EU is stagnating and is being left behind? This is a prime example. I thought it was one of the most explicit goals recently for EU to become green, with cheap EVs as something that every consumer would want. So then why are you slapping 40% tariffs on EVs? Because you can't compete with China, because industrially they're eating EU's industrial lunch and the only way compete is through these heavy protectionist mechanisms. Which ultimately means you won't be able to compete with them in exports outside of EU.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/europes-automakers-fret-china-ev-tariff-fears-become-reality-2024-06-12/#:~:text=Tariffs%20on%20Chinese%2Dmade%20electric,and%20still%20make%20a%20profit.

The green agenda has deliberately and strategically been boosted by the Chinese for well over a decade with the explicit goal of increasing their market share on the global car markets. They realized that their producers would take decades to catch up to the technological know-how and the infrastructure (factories etc.) of the West when it came to vehicles with combustion engines. Therefore, they pushed this new ideology which goaded the West into voluntarily throwing away and invalidating its technological edge and creating a new market on which the Western manufacturers don't have a century of headstart on their Chinese counterparts. Moreover, EVs and electric engines are technologically and mechanically simpler than combustion engines. The performance and price of EVs is heavily determined by their batteries, which are a comparatively low-tech product and essentially just chemistry. Dito for solar panels. Europe/the West was never gonna compete with China on these types of products, whose price is almost single-handedly determined by labor and material costs.

For this reason, the Biden admin already imposed tariffs on Chinese EV manufacturers which are similar to those considered by the EU. Without tariffs, the US market for EVs would get swamped by cheap Chinese imports too.
https://www.bruegel.org/analysis/rippling-out-bidens-tariffs-chinese-electric-vehicles-and-their-impact-europe

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jun 13 2024 01:37pm
Member
Posts: 14,677
Joined: Jun 27 2010
Gold: 100,701.50
Jun 13 2024 01:35pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Jun 13 2024 09:29pm)
You're so close. "it will be costly to both sides and end up badly for everyone", but you're also convinced it will happen. these aren't mentally ill hobos with knives, they're politicians aided by intelligence agencies who want to retain both power and wealth. mutually assured destruction, whether conventional or nuclear, is a non-starter.

and russia is winning, that should make you happy. they'll win, which should make you happy. you've been shouting it from the rooftops since long before it was a foregone conclusion and still a likely outcome. why pull the US in proper on the precipice of victory, 1 year away from a potential trump win where he'll hand you a great treaty? because of missile guiding systems? silly.


If you read my last post you see I'm not convinced that it will happen but it could happen

"If China gets involved" --> notice the "if"

Okay?

Secondly there's something I didn't even mention yet and that's Western hegemony that's being threatened. If you follow different analysts who talk about this you've seen that they all predict the West will do whatever they can to prevent losing to Russia and China.

I'm sure you're aware of that though
Member
Posts: 91,061
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,504.69
Jun 13 2024 01:44pm
Quote (Djunior @ Jun 13 2024 01:35pm)
If you read my last post you see I'm not convinced that it will happen but it could happen

"If China gets involved" --> notice the "if"

Okay?

Secondly there's something I didn't even mention yet and that's Western hegemony that's being threatened. If you follow different analysts who talk about this you've seen that they all predict the West will do whatever they can to prevent losing to Russia and China.

I'm sure you're aware of that though


China will go into open war with their #1 trade partner?

Quote
Destinations In April 2024, China exported mostly to United States ($41.8B), Hong Kong ($24.3B), Vietnam ($14B), South Korea ($12.7B), and Japan ($12.3B)


skipping hong kong, which is chinese for all intents and purposes, their next lowest is Vietnam, south korea, and Japan. of which a large number of goods are for creating more US goods, and which 2 are key US allies in the region.

If is a pretty silly thing to hide behind when that's an IF as large as china's population.
Member
Posts: 52,259
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,404.67
Jun 13 2024 02:01pm
Quote (thesnipa @ 13 Jun 2024 21:44)
China will go into open war with their #1 trade partner?



skipping hong kong, which is chinese for all intents and purposes, their next lowest is Vietnam, south korea, and Japan. of which a large number of goods are for creating more US goods, and which 2 are key US allies in the region.

If is a pretty silly thing to hide behind when that's an IF as large as china's population.


Another factor to consider is the mutual depence created by the gigantic amount of US treasuries held by China. If the FED starts really going overboard with money printing, they could devalue trillions on Chinese-owned assets. On the flip side, China could crash the dollar if it dumped all its treasuries onto the market. An all-out war between the US and China would lead to economic devastation before the first nukes even hit the ground.
Member
Posts: 37,881
Joined: Nov 16 2005
Gold: 13.37
Jun 13 2024 02:03pm
:D

Muscovites shat into bloomers of the Ukrainians. Again.



This post was edited by Norlander on Jun 13 2024 02:06pm
Member
Posts: 14,677
Joined: Jun 27 2010
Gold: 100,701.50
Jun 13 2024 02:07pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Jun 13 2024 09:44pm)
China will go into open war with their #1 trade partner?

skipping hong kong, which is chinese for all intents and purposes, their next lowest is Vietnam, south korea, and Japan. of which a large number of goods are for creating more US goods, and which 2 are key US allies in the region.

If is a pretty silly thing to hide behind when that's an IF as large as china's population.


Two years ago users here were typing "Russia will collapse under the weight of those sanctions they cannot survive without their #1 trade partner the EU"

Well, they did
Member
Posts: 91,061
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,504.69
Jun 13 2024 02:17pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jun 13 2024 02:01pm)
Another factor to consider is the mutual depence created by the gigantic amount of US treasuries held by China. If the FED starts really going overboard with money printing, they could devalue trillions on Chinese-owned assets. On the flip side, China could crash the dollar if it dumped all its treasuries onto the market. An all-out war between the US and China would lead to economic devastation before the first nukes even hit the ground.


funny enough the global economy itself is the best defense we have of both nuclear warfare and ww3. no one would even want to emerge the winner, you'd rule to world AND be in a worse place. ironic to be sure.
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Jun 13 2024 02:47pm
Biden Warns Putin Over Ukraine: "We're Not Backing Down"

just the video in the article

https://www.newsweek.com/united-states-joe-biden-g7-italy-ukraine-russia-1912585
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1433143324333433443354473Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll