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Apr 25 2019 09:30am
Quote (bogie160 @ Apr 25 2019 09:19am)
The operation in Somalia was in support of UN humanitarian objectives, the hundreds of Somalis killed were part of a mob that overran American positions, killed soldiers, and dragged them through the street.

Omar's family fled to avoid being killed by the same militias the United States was combating. The battle of Mogadishu eventually led to the United States withdrawing from the region, and to no one's surprise Somalia is still a violence wracked mess today.

Omar blames the United States because it's easier and more satisfying than coming to grips with the internal and external factors that led to the collapse of the Somali state in 1991.

Did Somalia need to invade Ethiopia in the 70s? Of course not, and Soviet support for Ethiopia eventually led to Somalia's defeat, popular unrest, and the collapse of the central government.

No, no, Omar blames the United States, presumably for no other reason than because she's been fed that lie since she was born, compounded and amplified by leftist apologists in the United States.


whats more is that the tepid Somalian intervention was a classic example of Clinton's failings as a noninterventionalist president. There were no less than three major humanitarian crisises unfolding at the same time that Clinton was too reticient to intervene and stop. Somalia, Sudan & Kosovo all happened under his watch. Somalia collapsed into a civil war and Aidid's clan was killing humanitarian workers trying to distribute aid to relieve the millions of people starving. It was their goal to stop the food from being delivered and they killed 25 Pakistanis from the UN in one attack- they would seize it for themselves and try to leverage the starvation to take control of the country.

Clinton did not want the US dragged into a quagmire with no clear end in sight and no feasible way to resolve it cleanly, but he wasn't willfully blind to the crisis either. So he signed off on a surgical operation with the idea of pulling off a quick in-and-out raid to seize the Habr Gadr clan leadership from a meeting and hold them to try to bring Aidid to the table and resolve it diplomatically. This came after a previous bungled raid managed to galvanize that corner of mogadishu against the US when they killed a group of elders at a peace meeting with TOW missiles, killing dozens of civilians and leading to an angry mob that immediately lynched four American journalists trying to cover it. And of course, the famed battle of mogadishu ensued from this bungled raid- they got their clan leaders sure, and had no way to exfiltrate the troops and wound up in a bitter urban battle fighting their way out on foot through hundreds of ambushers. It was only a shitfuck because we were consciously not bringing in the heavy guns and warthogs to provide heavy air support and crush the militias, because it was the big plan to not get involved militarily, just do these in and out operations.


There are pitfalls and traps for a president who is too much of an interventionalist like Bush, and there are similar failings for a president who is too much of a non-interventionalist like Clinton, and even when a pragmatist comes along and says "I wont' do stupid shit, I'll intervene but only when its smart" like Obama did: you actually have to be smart. And his foreign policy wasn't, and he fucked it up in terms of both intervening where he shouldn't have and disengaging when he shouldn't have.
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Apr 25 2019 09:53am
Quote (bogie160 @ Apr 25 2019 10:19am)
The operation in Somalia was in support of UN humanitarian objectives, the hundreds of Somalis killed were part of a mob that overran American positions, killed soldiers, and dragged them through the street.

Omar's family fled to avoid being killed by the same militias the United States was combating. The battle of Mogadishu eventually led to the United States withdrawing from the region, and to no one's surprise Somalia is still a violence wracked mess today.

Omar blames the United States because it's easier and more satisfying than coming to grips with the internal and external factors that led to the collapse of the Somali state in 1991.

Did Somalia need to invade Ethiopia in the 70s? Of course not, and Soviet support for Ethiopia eventually led to Somalia's defeat, popular unrest, and the collapse of the central government.

No, no, Omar blames the United States, presumably for no other reason than because she's been fed that lie since she was born, compounded and amplified by leftist apologists in the United States.


My point was that her simplistic anti-interventionist narrative isn't substantially different than the one some Trump supporters run with.

I don't agree with her... I'm a proud interventionist.

This post was edited by IceMage on Apr 25 2019 09:53am
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Apr 25 2019 10:11am
Quote (IceMage @ Apr 25 2019 09:53am)
My point was that her simplistic anti-interventionist narrative isn't substantially different than the one some Trump supporters run with.

I don't agree with her... I'm a proud interventionist.


I think there's a distinct difference between "I don't like the US getting itself involved in quagmires in the third world when we have problems back home" and "I don't like the US"
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Apr 25 2019 10:11am
Guess the right shouldn't have cried wolf (which they always tell the left) for all those years about that very polite black christian born in Hawaii and then elected the King Birther

Imagine if yall had saved that energy for the muslim refugee that likes to be edgy so often
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Apr 25 2019 10:17am
Quote (IceMage @ Apr 25 2019 10:53am)
My point was that her simplistic anti-interventionist narrative isn't substantially different than the one some Trump supporters run with.

I don't agree with her... I'm a proud interventionist.



Trump supporter : We get a raw deal from interventionism, and spend our wealth overseas to be hated by foreigners with no tangible benefit.

Omar : The United States's foreign policy is fundamentally responsible for the problems afflicting other countries today.
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Apr 25 2019 10:34am
Quote (bogie160 @ Apr 25 2019 11:17am)
Trump supporter : We get a raw deal from interventionism, and spend our wealth overseas to be hated by foreigners with no tangible benefit.

Omar : The United States's foreign policy is fundamentally responsible for the problems afflicting other countries today.


You can't really group every Trump supporter into the same non-interventionist bucket. Sure, some just buy that simplistic message. But others(at times rightly) believe that our interventionist foreign policy has destabilized regions and fueled radicalism. It's the Ron Paul strain of the Republican party.

Omar is kind of like Trump in that she's not overly concerned with offending people's patriotic sensibilities. Trump's supporters don't care when he does it, and her supporters don't seem to care either.

This post was edited by IceMage on Apr 25 2019 10:34am
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Apr 25 2019 06:42pm
Quote (IceMage @ 25 Apr 2019 18:34)
You can't really group every Trump supporter into the same non-interventionist bucket. Sure, some just buy that simplistic message. But others(at times rightly) believe that our interventionist foreign policy has destabilized regions and fueled radicalism. It's the Ron Paul strain of the Republican party.

Omar is kind of like Trump in that she's not overly concerned with offending people's patriotic sensibilities. Trump's supporters don't care when he does it, and her supporters don't seem to care either.


The difference is that Trump embodies a ton of typical stereotypes about americans, while Omar embodies pretty much every stereotype about sympathizers of the political islam trying to subvert their naive host nation.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Apr 25 2019 06:42pm
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Apr 25 2019 06:55pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Apr 25 2019 05:42pm)
The difference is that Trump embodies a ton of typical stereotypes about americans, while Omar embodies pretty much every stereotype about sympathizers of the political islam trying to subvert their naive host nation.


Republicans shouldn't have birthered obama

nobody listening now
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Apr 25 2019 07:10pm
Quote (Beowulf @ 26 Apr 2019 02:55)
Republicans shouldn't have birthered obama


Fully agreed. Obama pursued more than enough questionable policies, they really shouldnt have used such a shitty and petty angle to attack him.

Being the King Birther is actually one of my biggest gripes with Trump.
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Apr 25 2019 07:13pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Apr 25 2019 08:10pm)
Fully agreed. Obama pursued more than enough questionable policies, they really shouldnt have used such a shitty and petty angle to attack him.

Being the King Birther is actually one of my biggest gripes with Trump.


Not making fun of disabled people or insulting the gold star families of fallen veterans?

Calling an African American an African did it yes?

This post was edited by Skinned on Apr 25 2019 07:14pm
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