Finland is part of NATO now... Already in range. NATO nuclear threat is no longer an argument since decades already.

The only Reason of why Ruzzia is agressing Ukraine is because of an Authoritarian Elite which does not want to lose its unfair, undemocratic, privileges. Nothing, absolutely nothing, else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko#TCDD_poisoning
You know who is really responsible ? Putin and his circle for the reasons i posted above.
The Ukrainian population wanted to join EU, shocking.

This is your view, another view is that Russia wants to protect its ethnic russian minorities that are living in Ukraine, specifically in Crimea (and its naval base) and eastern ukraine. That and to ensure Ukraine does not Join its enemy, Nato. of course, by this point in the war a degree of punishment, a landgrab, will also factor. I am not saying this is right, its not. I dont disagree re: unfair, undemocratic and privileged. its not fair what countries do to other countries or what people do to other people, but they still get away with it. Look at alot of the conflicts around the world right now. its not fair, but it still continues.

There is no higher power that can tell countries to stop. might decides who is right or wrong, or rather might makes it happen. That is the messed up world we live in.



i read that wiki a long time ago. As we have always said, for the last 2 decades Ukraine was moving ever closer to the EU. It was great for us and Russia probably didnt like it. Russia's ability to slow this down or prevent this, was non-existent, and Russia's reluctance, to suck it up, as it were, led to this war. I still believe that if the US had not said anything about Nato, that Ukraine may have been able to properly break away, but we will never know, since we now know of of the drivers of this war was Nato membership.

This post was edited by ferdia on Apr 4 2024 06:56am

This is false, russians want nothing they are scared since 100+ years. They protect no one: just have to see how they throw their minorities in meat grinder completely destroys your argument.

Decisions are coming from this central power, a very small circle, who does not want to give power or freedom to its own people. Gulag, remember ? They killed all their intellectuals, and degenerated their own culture.

The only ones who would "want" something eventually are the fools profitering over the regime by a way or another, even the most miserable ones (ie: a prison guard or a police member)
You can add ruscist bigoted grandmas who watch State TV since 1980 eventually... "Stability.meme.jpg"

10% of the population does not decides for the 90% others. The agression is coming from these people.

You completely dodged. A dormitory was hit, not the Shahed facility.

By the way, Russia has various missile systems that can strike anywhere in Ukraine and they continue to do so. When talking about drones (to make a fair comparison), Russia is launching wave after wave of Shahed drones that can strike all over Ukraine and for some weird reason these are called dumb / cheap / unreliable / whatever and when Ukraine launches cardboard drones the entire West salivates, or these latest drones that can strike deep into Russia when one or two reach the target. This dormitory near the Shahed facility was hit by one drone if I understand correctly.


Can someone here explain this weird difference in reasoning??

What is the reason the Western elites want to take over Ukraine?

You say this is false, I would say its just a different view.
You say russians want nothing, but all people want peace and security.
You say russians are scared since 100+ years, but this is not quantifiable, and if it were it would apply, again, to most countries. There are countries in the world that literally scare their people every day, using fear to get their way. This is not exclusive to Russia im afraid.
You say russia does not protect anyone, but they reacted to the conflict in eastern Ukraine. Yes they are protecting Crimea based on their own geopolitical or Cultural interests and values. It was Ukraine that bombed its own people for 8 years and we have people in this thread saying this never happened.
When you talk about decisions coming from a central power, again that is in every country, the few dictate to the many. Your not wrong, the history and reality of Gulags is terrible and I dont disagree with you re: culture.
The largest profiteers of this conflict are not in Russia, they are gigantic western companies that are making billions selling weapons or gobbling up Ukraine. profiteering on loans that Ukraine will spend a long time repaying.

This post was edited by ferdia on Apr 4 2024 07:07am

I'm literally trying to advance the debate, but you refuse to clarify something that I assume is your position; Going by your posts.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Do you believe NATO expansion is a credible justification for Putins invasion?
Yes or no?

If so what were the credible threats posed by NATO expansion?
Are you able to quantify them? So far nobody has been capable of doing so.

My opinion and position is more than clear, your being dishonest about that.
Stubbs views are a rebuke of Putins justification for invading Ukraine.

You are saying his rebuke is false, as far as I can tell. So you the onus is with you to prove that NATO expansion is a justification for Putins invasion.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Apr 4 2024 07:08am

Just a quick reply to bolded

For a geo-political rival, yes absolutely.

Weird you don't understand NATO is a military alliance and that this is geo-politics we're talking about

So this is Russian imperialism manifest?