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Apr 3 2024 07:35am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Apr 3 2024 01:54pm)
I can see now why you don't flesh out specifics when pushed. When you actually try it equates to " nope, that expert is wrong as I have said before"
Your all over the place talking about sanctions, nuclear attacks and anything you can to avoid explaining the literal threats from NATO.
The threats that you claim constitute the reasons and justification for Putin to invade.
And unsurprisingly throw out the personal attack nonsense.

My views are aligned with Kotkin, Plokhy and Stubb.

That there is no tangible threat from NATO to Russia or Russians but there definitely is a threat to Putin's regime from ethnically and culturally close peoples becoming closer to democracy.

What I know you believe is the case. NATO is perceived as a threat by Putin and ergo war was inevitable.
What are the literal threats?
What were they?
Missiles being placed in Kiev? The sane ones that can already be stationed in Poland, Finland or in Kaliningrad on Russuas side
You dodged answering the specifics of this before, maybe you can answer now?
Was it a NATO invasion?

By the same NATO countries that
a. Didn't spend close to NATO targets on defence fir decades.
b. Won't commit to longterm defence manufacturing and retooling
c. Did massive trade with Russia that underpinned the entire German manufacturing sector

And before you ChatGPT a metaphor about backgardens or sleeping with Russias wife again.
That is not a credible response.

What were the specific threats that justified the invasion?
What were they?

1600 pages of claiming incredulously that NATO expansion threatened Russia into invading. That Russia never planned for this war.
But never actually explains the threats in real terms.

Now is your chance to set the record straight.


it was the Finnish Prime Minister, In his VIDEO, WHICH I POSTED, (who you are aligned with!) talking about Nuclear attacks. Your deflecting again!

please tell me you actually watched the video.

you then doubled down deflecting not addressing any of the 3 points raised!

1. that putin wanted this war - no response from you.
2. w/e you could spin about spheres of influence - no response from you.
and
3. w/e you could spin about sanctions - again, no response from you.

we have time and time again outlined to you the perceived threat posed by the west. rather then accepting that russia sees these moves as a threat (whether you agree with them or not) you keep coming back to this point while not addressing the points that were raised.

if any neutral entity, or pro proximity person, wants to weigh in here and support his position, go ahead and i will try to debate it again, but please watch the video and try to defend the 3 points mentioned.

This post was edited by ferdia on Apr 3 2024 07:41am
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Apr 3 2024 08:22am
Quote (ferdia @ Apr 3 2024 09:04am)
I invited you several times to read over the topic from the start, to review the documents and video's posted. I have not seen you posting to state you have done this. You are smearing the messenger in order to ignore the message. This is a well established tactic and is not healthy for good debate. We saw the same thing with Scott Ritter. The fact is George Galloway was democratically elected by an overwhelming majority of people in his constituency so like it not, he is the voice of his people. We have posted several video's in this topic related to George Galloway and they are not radical. The fact that you have not exercised yourself to watch them, or rather, acknowledge them, or read over the entire topic before posting in this topic is just ignorance. Most of us are old enough now not to accept things at face value and to take in what is being sald with a grain of salt.

The facts that cannot be argued are : England has continued to support the escalation of this war, played an active role in preventing a negotiated peace, is in deep trouble economically, yet still has the wherewithal to continue funding this war and to shop around the world to ensure more countries continue this war. Debating the merits of escalating the war and the right/wrong of waging this war does not change the history of events.

Poland is fear mongering the world, they are not the only ones, watch out, you will be next they say, when fundamentally Russia has not demonstrated an ability or inclination to attack Nato. They have not conscripted enough men for this narrative to be deemed credible, yet here we are. If Russia conscripted 5 million men then yes, I would be in agreement with you. But they have not, for years, and they have not moved on western Ukraine. This supports the land bridge / crimea narrative. it does not support the Ukraine today, Poland and Germany tomorrow narrative. I cant get away from that point. The map tells its own story.

Yes, Europe, by all means arm yourselves to the teeth, but dont send troops, that is leading us to a path of WW3. incidentally bombing targets 100's of miles inside Russia has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever seen, but here we are.


So just for reference: You posted a clip by Scott Ritter and I asked how his opinion on the topic was relevant (as it was about the eastern european geo political region), and you couldnt give me a response. I listened to the video you posted from Ritter (eventhough he is a state actor and a convicted pedophile) and it just didn't make a lot of sense, he made predictions he has no place making as he has no experience in the geo political region. You and Djunior couldnt even agree if he was an expert of not. Nobody discredited Ritter because he made a video, we discredited ritter because he isn't a credible source in terms of the topic at hand.

There are no debate tactics, if you want to provide proof that for instance Scott Ritter is worth listening to about the Ukrainian situation in Bakhmut, by all means go ahead and provide that proof. As far as I know, Ritter does not call himself an expert on eastern europe (because he isnt one, he is a munitions expert who worked in the middle east).

You are being a little weird in my opinion ferdia. If i sent you a video of Hunter Biden high as a kite saying that Ukraine was certainly winning the war because his professional analysis and insight into the matter (as well as his connections) tell him that victory is sure to come, would you agree with it? Galloway is (just like hunter biden would be) a layman who is payed by a part of the war to spread a narrative. To me, it doesn't matter if he has won a local election in the UK (because it surprised nobody with any sort of baseline knowledge of UK politics) and it doesn't make him an interesting source. What discredits him as a source is that he (just like Ritter) has a vested interest in framing the narrative because they get paid by one part of the conflict.

Again, you just like Djunior start rambling off things I havent disagreed or agreed with in some sort of bizarre gish gallop. If you wanna do the Ritter thing again we can, but it's just not a good look for you in terms of source credibility.
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Apr 3 2024 08:27am
Quote (Djunior @ Apr 3 2024 10:25am)
Don't try to twist my words

-->



I can present other sources and the issue is exactly the same --> The UK sends another 1.5 billion to Ukraine (Ukraine has all together received hundreds of billions already, that money was wasted because the situation only got worse)

Don't like Galloway? I don't care, I enjoy people like him slapping trash establishment and elitists like oligarch Sunak


e: And don't get me started about your supposedly "superior world views" lol

Go support another war trash troll


I think it's very sad and incredibly ironic that the person who says "Don't try to twist my words" literally twists my words and says (with quotation marks) that i've said i have: "superior world views". It just goes to show why people shouldn't really take you or the sources you provide seriously as you frequently project things you yourself do onto others as a strawman argument.

You just ramble off your NPC talking points again, never getting closer to discussing the question at hand or responding to arguments (because of incapability or willingness we will never know). We get it, you're afraid. Ill restate my argument, as i usually do when you deflect and cower like a dog in the street:

So just so everyone understands: " I truly don't care if it's Galloway's reaction or any other guy" - You don't care who presents you with information, just as long as that information backs up your worldview?

"you are trying to change the conversation to Galloway and I'm not going to let you." - Just to be clear, you posted Galloway and I asked you why. I specifically asked: Isn't this guy a presenter on RT? You would think that you (and others) could find other corroborating information other than opinion pieces by state actors? Seems a little bit weird to me that the only people who seem to affirm your worldview are people being paid by the same people you tend to agree with.

If you don't care where your information comes from and you aren't source critical at all then I would understand why you wouldn't want to discuss your sources (since they don't stand scrutiny but it doesn't matter to you anyways). I think most people would want to know where their information comes from instead of just being sheeple, following some guy completely uncritically and blindly because he happens to agree with you.


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Apr 3 2024 08:31am
Quote (Hobbiks @ Apr 3 2024 04:22pm)
So just for reference: You posted a clip by Scott Ritter and I asked how his opinion on the topic was relevant (as it was about the eastern european geo political region), and you couldnt give me a response. I listened to the video you posted from Ritter (eventhough he is a state actor and a convicted pedophile) and it just didn't make a lot of sense, he made predictions he has no place making as he has no experience in the geo political region. You and Djunior couldnt even agree if he was an expert of not. Nobody discredited Ritter because he made a video, we discredited ritter because he isn't a credible source in terms of the topic at hand.

There are no debate tactics, if you want to provide proof that for instance Scott Ritter is worth listening to about the Ukrainian situation in Bakhmut, by all means go ahead and provide that proof. As far as I know, Ritter does not call himself an expert on eastern europe (because he isnt one, he is a munitions expert who worked in the middle east).

You are being a little weird in my opinion ferdia. If i sent you a video of Hunter Biden high as a kite saying that Ukraine was certainly winning the war because his professional analysis and insight into the matter (as well as his connections) tell him that victory is sure to come, would you agree with it? Galloway is (just like hunter biden would be) a layman who is payed by a part of the war to spread a narrative. To me, it doesn't matter if he has won a local election in the UK (because it surprised nobody with any sort of baseline knowledge of UK politics) and it doesn't make him an interesting source. What discredits him as a source is that he (just like Ritter) has a vested interest in framing the narrative because they get paid by one part of the conflict.

Again, you just like Djunior start rambling off things I havent disagreed or agreed with in some sort of bizarre gish gallop. If you wanna do the Ritter thing again we can, but it's just not a good look for you in terms of source credibility.


Scott ritter is an expert, and has extensive military & diplomatic background, more so than everyone in this topic combined.

So why do I think he is a shit source? Well he has had a vendetta against US, especially democrats since 1998 (probably since 1991-ish), will shit whenever given the chance.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Apr 3 2024 08:34am
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Apr 3 2024 08:33am
Quote (ownyaah @ Apr 3 2024 03:31pm)
Scott ritter is an expert, and has extensive military & diplomatic background, more so than everyone in this topic combined.

So why doIthink he is a shit source? Well he has had a vendetta against US, especially democrats since 1998.


The fact is this is the post I linked to Hobbis:

Quote (ferdia @ Mar 29 2024 08:26pm)
^hobbiiks ^Gala ^Ashirgo



Here is a video from 8 years ago (2016) outlining the road to war - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
The Ukraine Position in 2019 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xNHmHpERH8
Here is a debate from 2023 challenging the position set out in the above 2016 video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aNMOEQ0248
Here is another video again from 2023 challenging the Meirscheimer position - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlB-pRqdyBg&t=591s

Understand I am not giving you one position, I am giving you different views, and you can choose to delve into some of the points made, and for you to make up your own minds. As most regulars are aware I subscribe to the meirsheimer position. I disagree with the views challenging that position.


did you watch any of this ? Can you refer me to the post from me with the clip from Scott Ritter and I will respond to you ?
Its OK if you dont want to reply to the first question, but if you can provide my post with the clip from Scott Ritter it would be helpful, cheers.

This post was edited by ferdia on Apr 3 2024 08:34am
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Apr 3 2024 08:35am
Quote (ferdia @ Apr 3 2024 04:33pm)
The fact is this is the post I linked to Hobbis:



^Hobbiks did you watch any of this ? Can you refer me to the clip from Scott Ritter and I will respond to you ?


People also forget, scott was also one of the first people to point out that russians couldn´t press on with the 200k, and leaving an open corridor flooding ukraine with weapons would mean russians lose or have to mobilize/massively recruit/war economy

I know this isn´t related to your post, but just random funny info

This post was edited by ownyaah on Apr 3 2024 08:35am
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Apr 3 2024 08:35am
Quote
please tell me you actually watched the video.


It physically pains me to see you expecting something incredible every time with steady result. Expect the worst and sometimes people will surprise you :)

This post was edited by Norlander on Apr 3 2024 08:36am
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Apr 3 2024 08:36am
Quote (ownyaah @ Apr 3 2024 04:31pm)
Scott ritter is an expert, and has extensive military & diplomatic background, more so than everyone in this topic combined.

So why do I think he is a shit source? Well he has had a vendetta against US, especially democrats since 1998 (probably since 1991-ish)


Scott Ritter is not an expert on the geo politics of Eastern Europe. Ritter was not making comments about munitions and their capabilities, in the video Ferdia linked that never once came up. How come you disagree with Ritter about what he is an expert on?

"So why do I think he is a shit source? Well he has had a vendetta against US" - Great you don't like Ritter. There were several reasons that came up as to why Ritter is not credible, but right now we are discussing strictly his credentials. The fact that his career was over in the US has been discussed ad nauseum.
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Apr 3 2024 08:37am
Quote (ferdia @ Apr 3 2024 04:33pm)
The fact is this is the post I linked to Hobbis:



^Hobbiks did you watch any of this ? Can you refer me to the post from me with the clip from Scott Ritter and I will respond to you ?
Its OK if you dont want to reply to the first question, but if you can provide my post with the clip from Scott Ritter it would be helpful, cheers.


I responded to you but I never got a response back! If you are open to changing your mind I will quite literally watch it all (probably in the coming week) and make minute by minute comments on things i agree with or disagree with. What you have to promise me however is that if there is misinformation, you will be ready to change your mind? (As will I, ofcourse.)

" Can you refer me to the post from me with the clip from Scott Ritter and I will respond to you ?" - I can try to look it up in my history, ill do it as soon as im on the right PC! :)
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Apr 3 2024 08:39am
Quote (Hobbiks @ Apr 3 2024 03:37pm)
I responded to you but I never got a response back! If you are open to changing your mind I will quite literally watch it all (probably in the coming week) and make minute by minute comments on things i agree with or disagree with. What you have to promise me however is that if there is misinformation, you will be ready to change your mind? (As will I, ofcourse.)

" Can you refer me to the post from me with the clip from Scott Ritter and I will respond to you ?" - I can try to look it up in my history, ill do it as soon as im on the right PC! :)


its fine i will look over the last month of posts. i didnt think i posted many from scott ritter tbh. he is too vitriolic (but neither this fact nor his history makes him wrong on every point). i am open minded hobbiks. I will look at which posts from you i didnt respond to, and respond. if i repeat myself, it is not intentional.

This post was edited by ferdia on Apr 3 2024 08:39am
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