Quote (ferdia @ Mar 28 2024 12:00am)

your deflecting, you said this: "What your describing would be nations having the right to choose what security framework they see is best for them. Which they all have. Morocco could form an alliance with China. But they choose not to."

https://i.imgur.com/v5ikQeM.png

I responded by saying they cant, I gave an example (solomon island) and referred you to the monroe doctrine. you then ignored all that and said i was a hypocrite. The fact that Russia is weaker then the US does not merely supports my position, it weakens your argument. Sweden and Finland could join nato because (a) the US wills it, (b) it alligns with their current position and (c) Russia was not going to go invade Finland (Finland is strong). What all of that eludes to is that you are the hypocrite, not me. The strong can tell the weak what to do and the weak dont have a say against the strong. its as simple as that. its geopolitical power. Sure, Russia is not happy with Finland but its not Ukraine and Russia is not braindead (invading Finland would be braindead stupid on Russia's part).

The US is the strongest country on the planet, it dictates. thats why the UN is a lame duck, thats why the Ukraine war and the israeli conflict continues, because the US wills it and the weak cant do anything to stop it. Thats the harsh reality. If Nato was not the issue the US could simply say Ukraine will not join Nato and the war would would be over tomorrow.

Why dont you simple make a list of your positions and we will agree not to talk about those points with you (again). This discussion has been had multiple times, we dont have to do the same broken record again and again. Better to simply look forward to the future and make guesses then to look back through some lens that ignores key facts. Your view on history and events is just different, not completely wrong, just different. The US had the opportunity before this war started to state to Russia the Ukraine would not join Nato. They didnt, Therefore the arguement that its not about Nato cannot be disproved. Yes, we already had the conversation "but Putin said" and we already responded to that. There are so many video's on the issue and you have been in this topic for well over a year so you have seen and contributed to the arguments and counter arguments, watched the same video's etc.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 27 Mar 2024 19:29)

None of this contains any supporting information or logical reasoning.

It's a pattern that when you are pressed to argue your position you fall back on describing a narrative that you are right and can’t possibly be disproven.
When in reality there is nothing there but a seething contempt for the US and established Western structure. Ironically of which you are part of. Also a pattern in anti Western pushers, you all live here :thumbsup:

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 27 Mar 2024 19:21)

That reads like an absolute trainwreck. There's also a quote function you don't have to screenshot a quote.

Your position as I understand it, is that NATO expansion is the justification for Putins invasion of Ukraine.

I do not believe that NATO expansion was the reason, certainly not in terms of an actual threat to Russian security.
Even if I did believe it was the reason I would not agree it was a justified reason to invade Ukraine.
As proven by your own admission that Finland is strong, they have entered NATO and Russia has had barely a reaction.

Help me to steelman your position here.
Let's assume I agreed that NATO expansion was the reason Putin chose to invade Ukraine, but ultimately not invade Finland; For doing the exact thing that you allege is the reason Putin has invaded Ukraine. Joining NATO. NATO expansion.
Let's ommit that glaring discrepancy.

Why is NATO expansion a justified reason to invade Ukraine?
Tangibly, literally, how and why is it?

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 28 2024 12:52am)

Firstly, I will reiterate. Russia is not the US; Your comparing apples to oranges.
Unless you want to convince otherwise.

Secondly, do you remember this one?
Sweden and Finland join NATO.

Why can't you admit NATO was never and has never been the issue?

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 28 2024 12:52am)

Firstly, I will reiterate. Russia is not the US; Your comparing apples to oranges.
Unless you want to convince otherwise.

Secondly, do you remember this one?
Sweden and Finland join NATO.

Why can't you admit NATO was never and has never been the issue?

Quote

The document, dated April 15, 2022, sketches out how negotiators on both sides sought to end the fighting by agreeing to turn Ukraine into a “permanently neutral state that doesn't participate in military blocs,”

Quote (Hobbiks @ Mar 28 2024 08:15am)

You will never get a response to that question, its the ultimate ghost. Putin sat and gave a 35 minute ahistorical middle school presentation on why Russia has historical claim to Ukraine (and in extension other territories) and Russophiles and contrarians will still talk about NATO encroachment.

I ask Dtiny this all the time but I never get a response: "Why do you think you know Putins reason better than Putin?" It's baffling to me that people can listen to hours long interviews and chose to ignore the entire interview because it doesn't respond to their biases.

Quote (Djunior @ Mar 28 2024 09:16am)

Sweden and Finland are not Ukraine, YOU are comparing apples to oranges. No Crimea in those countries, no large group of ethnic Russians there, no Sevastopol naval base there. Your arguments don't even touch the issues at hand, lol

NATO is the issue why do you think Russia insists on Ukrainian neutrality?? --> https://www.wsj.com/world/russia-ukraine-peace-deal-2022-document-6e12e093








Back to your shit posting because you have no arguments? Imagine this kind of trash --> https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=92094408&f=119&p=659597404#p659597404

Secondly show all the posts where you ask me that. I would've slammed you just like I slam the user above on a regular basis.

You NATO shills don't even realize what's going on there, your posts prove that (NATO is not involved in Ukraine).

:rofl:

Quote (Djunior @ Mar 28 2024 08:16am)

Sweden and Finland are not Ukraine, YOU are comparing apples to oranges. No Crimea in those countries, no large group of ethnic Russians there, no Sevastopol naval base there. Your arguments don't even touch the issues at hand, lol

NATO is the issue why do you think Russia insists on Ukrainian neutrality?? --> https://www.wsj.com/world/russia-ukraine-peace-deal-2022-document-6e12e093








Back to your shit posting because you have no arguments? Imagine this kind of trash --> https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=92094408&f=119&p=659597404#p659597404

Secondly show all the posts where you ask me that. I would've slammed you just like I slam the user above on a regular basis.

You NATO shills don't even realize what's going on there, your posts prove that (NATO is not involved in Ukraine).

:rofl:

Quote (Djunior @ Mar 28 2024 09:16am)

Secondly show all the posts where you ask me that. I would've slammed you just like I slam the user above on a regular basis.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 27 2024 08:21pm)

As proven by your own admission that Finland is strong, they have entered NATO and Russia has had barely a reaction.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 28 2024 12:29am)

None of this contains any supporting information or logical reasoning.

It's a pattern that when you are pressed to argue your position you fall back on describing a narrative that you are right and can’t possibly be disproven.
When in reality there is nothing there but a seething contempt for the US and established Western structure. Ironically of which you are part of. Also a pattern in anti Western pushers, you all live here :thumbsup:

Quote (ferdia @ Mar 28 2024 10:19am)

you are ignoring facts.

1. it is a fact that the US is the only country in the world that dropped Nuclear Bombs on another country.
2. it is a fact that the US enforces the monroe doctrine.
3. it is a fact that the US threatened to invade the Solomon islands because they were considering a partnership with China.
4. it is a fact that the US supported the coup in 2014 in Ukraine and installed their people into the Ukrainian government
5. it is a fact that the US "aid" to Ukraine is "loans" that Ukraine is going to spend A LONG TIME repaying.
6. it is a fact that the US took steps to facilitate Ukraine in Nato, even when they knew this was a Russian red line, and armed Ukraine for this war which was clearly going to happen.
7. it is a fact that the US vetoed any investigation into the NS explosions
8. it is a fact that the US is not talking to Russia relating to the war and refuses all negotiation, and further that the US and its allies, England, scuppered the peace deal of 2023
9. it is a fact that the US installed nuclear missiles in turkey, and cried foul when Russia did the same in Cuba, and as part of the Cuban missile crisis the US agreed to withdraw its nuclear missiles in Turkey.
10. it is a fact that the actions against Imran Khan in Pakistan were done at the behest of the US government.
11. it is a fact that US foreign policy is to destabilize the world elsewhere under the notion that this prevents attacks on US soil and keeps its peers in check.
12. it is a fact that ISIS-K is affiliated with the US.
13. it is a fact that the US is the ONLY country in the world that continues to support Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

this list can go on all day long.