We're talking geo-politics here, thinking that NATO can do whatever they want shows that you don't have a clue

Things that matter here are how much weight a country puts on the scales, not your claimed "EU values" or "we are better than them"

That attitude brings nothing but contempt from the other side. You give them the finger you get the finger back


And no Russia is not a gas station, they're not isolated (BRICS), the sanctions backfired so NATO severely miscalculated

And now NATO is out of shells, lol (and interceptor missiles?)

RIP

What is the consequence of crossing that red line in the eyes of the Russian regime for you?
Georgia and Ukraine are sovereign states and nobody has the right interfere in their foreign relations.
Sources suggest that there have been back and forth interventions from Western and Russian influenced interest groups. Ultimately it's always Russia escalating with a military intervention.

Every country in the former Eastern Bloc is seeking for security guarantees.

To me it seems like the approval of the Russian state in Ukraine is rather low, considering that millions of Ukranians have fled the country by now and most of them won't be able to live in their former homes that have been taken away from them.

In 2008 Merkel and Sarkozy did not agree with allowing Ukraine into NATO and vetoed the USA.




Yanukovich became unbearable for his own party after making a U-turn and trying to shut down major alliances with Western countries which caused civil unrest.
He was ousted because he ordered to kill over 100 protesters, engaged in corruption (which is obviously not only attributable to him), censoring the media within the country.



So you say it would have been consequential for Ukraine to hand over Crimea and Donbass regions after Russia invaded them?
This had and still has no approval by the Ukranian population.
There have been numerous attempts to negotiate by Ukrainian and Western leaders. I recently watched a call from Macron with Zelensky after the war broke out. Zelensky said that they need to try everything to stop this full-scale invasion, including any attempts to negotiate.



Russia is solely responsible for this.

I want to emphasize that Russia does not care for people in Donbass. They don't care for people in Russia. They just don't like to see adjacent countries not being part of their influence sphere. They want puppet states like Belarus that abide by their will.





Russia sparked the conflict with sending mercenaries into Donbass, they sent troops to Crimea to overtake Ukranian military bases.

You have been claiming that 50k civilians were killed by Ukraine. There is no indication that anything like that has ever happened.
The Donbass war has an estimated 14,000 casualties: 6,500 Russians and Russian proxy forces, 4,400 Ukranian forces and 3,400 civilians.
I can’t tell you who is reponsible for what exactly since I have not been following that very conflict in every detail. Sources suggest that there has been war crimes and violations on both sides during the conflict.
I wonder what happened if Russia sent no troops and military arsenal.

To give an anology: What would you do if somebody invaded your territory?

So NATO can't do what they want, but Russia can.

Ok debunk junior, post your map again its overdue.

Good to know ...

Another wall of text. Wasted your time, I'm not going to bother picking through that.

you could've just posted the final question (bolded)

And the answer is --> NATO welcomed Ukraine in 2008 (fact!!!) knowing all too well that they crossed Russia's red line. The invasion happened in 2022

This could've been avoided in 2008

Why do you think Russia (still) insists that Ukraine remains neutral (hint: this is what the conflict is all about)




I never said that. You're getting really desperate

Did you see this BTW

Paper tiger syndrome?

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/30180

You failed to address the points I made.

Try to come up with counter arguments and I'll dig up some sources regarding the sanctions, EU energy crisis / inflation / BRICS / NATO shell shortage, and all that good stuff to slap you with

This post was edited by Djunior on Mar 27 2024 01:52pm

I tried to keep it simple for you.
I do like to engage in a mutual and respectful discussion to shed light on the topic where each and everyone contributes and shares what they know and think. Personal perspectives are legitimate in an opinionated discussion.
We should not engage on a personal conquest to slap anyone or see NATO or US lose, thus arguing in favor of Russia.

We should never forget that it’s the people in Ukraine suffering from Russian aggression. To put it quite frankly, there is no reason for a Russian invasion. There was no aggression from either NATO or Ukraine towards Russia.

You are probably referring to the Bucharest summit, where then NATO secretary-general Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said that NATO decided it would not yet offer membership to Georgia and Ukraine - nevertheless, Georgia and Ukraine would eventually become members.
One person cannot guarantee membership (the same argument as if people are saying Victoria Nuland is responsible for Russian invasion), especially before a country has applied for membership. Each existing member must approve an applicant country before NATO membership can be attained, in addition, conditions can be set on applicant countries before joining the organization. Resistance was reportedly met from France (Sarkozy) and Germany (Merkel).

Also I’d like to remind you that Russia has relations with NATO for a long time. During the 1990s Russia negotiated with NATO but never submitted a formal application to join them.
Russia did participate in the NATO Partnership for Peace program to foster cooperation between former Soviet states and NATO.



The Russo-Ukranian war started in 2022, yes.
The foundation for the conflict has been laid out much earlier.

There have been initial protests in Donestk against the 2014 Ukranian government. Now it becomes interesting because the separatist movement in Donetsk was significantly influenced and led by Russian citizens. Igor Girkin, a Russian military officer, played a key role in seizing government buildings and sparking the armed insurgency.
Russia provided significant support to the separatists in the form of volunteers, weapons, and other resources.



First of all if a country is having negotiations with a (military) alliance, that does not give it legitimation for invasion.
Secondly, Ukraine applied for NATO membership on September 30, 2022.

Some discussions centered on Ukraine adopting a neutral status, meaning not aligning with any military alliance. However, Ukraine's position has been that such neutrality would require international security guarantees, which weren't provided by Russia.

just a couple of things here:

It is in the worlds interest for Russia to win, or for Russia to accept a loss. Feel free to debate this point and i will contribute.
There is ample evidence to support the claims made, that Russia, Putin, floated the idea of joining Nato, which the US president, at the time, was initially open to considering but was later advised to reject.
There is also ample evidence that Russia, Putin, approached the West with open arms to co-operate, but that the West gave Russia the cold shoulder, which took us down this path over the last 23 years. English politicians such as Jack Straw commented on this and accepted a degree of blame.
I certainly dont forget that Ukraine is being rekt by Russia, and its citizens for the vast majority are blameless. However there was ample reason for Russia to invade. This topic was made before the invasion occured and years prior Ukraine outlined that they WOULD go to war with Russia imminently and years prior Meirscheimer outlined the same thing - that war was inevitable from the point of 2008 until the events of 2014 (when the US supported the Coup and set Ukraine firmly down this path).
I refute that there was no aggression against Russia. The promise of Nato membership was aggression. It does not matter if you dont see it as aggression, what matters is that Russia saw it as aggression. there is ample supporting video's and articles on this point. Ukraine was already doing joint exercises with Nato, there was fighting in eastern Ukraine for 8 years. Thats aggression.
In terms of 1 person is irrelevant, I disagree. words have power. If Macron says he is leaving everything on the table, including sending troops to Ukraine, then Russia will see that as a threat and respond.
Also while Russia co-operated with Nato and accepts Nato's red lines, the same can not be said of Nato and Russia's red lines.
In terms of legitimacy its like the Iraqi's saying to the US please leave. i didnt see the US leave though. Also when a country said it was open to a military alliance with China I seem to recall the US saying they would consider invading that country. In the real world actions have consequences and might is right. look at poor cuba.

I am not one to tell people how to post but your post above touched on way too many debatable / contested points. have you read over this topic from the start ? There is alot of information in the topic. yes alot of troll posts etc but there is good information there as well if you have the time to go over the topic.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 27 2024 03:09pm

Again, we're talking geo-politics and a history (notably WW2, cold war, a lot of distrust). You cannot dismiss this.

The Russians don't want NATO (military alliance) in Ukraine and for a bunch of clear reasons that we discussed here many times.

If this was the other way around (Russia absorbing Mexico and placing troops in Mexico) the US would react in the same way. Cuba crisis anyone?


If you insist that NATO can just do whatever they want and insist that Ukraine becomes a NATO member then you just have to deal with the consequences (war)

a better way of framing it is to allow Canada and Mexico to form a military alliance with China and for Morocco, Switzerland and Malta to form a military alliance with Russia, no harm no foul, sovereign nations can do what they want right ? What could possibly go wrong.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 27 2024 03:15pm