Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Mar 13 2024 08:54am)

How do you know you aren't just deep in a trench of western propaganda? You know western propaganda exists right?

Quote (Hobbiks @ Mar 13 2024 09:22am)

Who said I wasnt? Media theory is very clear on the fact that the western media (because of its profit interest which is tied to capitalism which is tied to state actors) essentially creates a hegemony where the biggest newspapers avoid topics or frame topics in a different way. I think it's hilarious that you think this was some sort of slam dunk because nobody disagrees with this, even in the "woke" stronghold that is academia. I also think its funny that you ask me questions like "you know western propaganda exists" when i have quoted more propaganda theory then you have read in your life, in this very thread. Everyone from Elluls to Jowett & O'Donnell agree that propaganda exists everywere, in every state and functions in different ways.

The stark difference and contrast between western propaganda and eastern propaganda is:
1) Western propaganda is heavily criticized from media and rhetorics scholars and academia in the west. In the east the same is not true, if you criticize internal propaganda structures and hegemony there are severe punishments.
2) The west does not use computational propaganda (which is malicious by intent) to the same degree as countries in the east. If you want sources on how the algorithm functions proactively to not allow for Russian independent media to become viral on websites like Yandex then i'd love to provide them. This is not the case in the west, where alternative media faces hardships and is disincentivized in different ways than the state making it impossible to see on your news feed.
3) The state involvement in media is completely different in for instance Russia than in France, Norway or even the US. In Russia during Soviet times there was a direct line from the Kreml to the big media outlets and the state owned media channels, after Soviet collapsed this line was removed. The direct line was reinstated under Putin and there are weekly meetings every thursday setting the agenda for the next week in terms of state affairs. This is unprecedented in any western country. Even a layman knows this.

Who "came up with" something is completely uninteresting to me. What is interesting is how it's being discussed in terms of propaganda in the war between Russia and Ukraine (which is what the thread is about). There are fantastic articles by among others Roman Horbyk about first step theory, inocculation theory etc. Again, if you are interested i'll gladly teach you about it and send you the links.

Quote (Djunior @ Mar 13 2024 09:39am)

The West has their MSM mouthpieces (news outlets owned by billionaires oligarchs) that carefully select what news they broadcast and what not. No one talks about Ukrainian losses but Russian losses are highlighted to give you an outstanding example.

Also, in the West you get punished in a weird way if you don't follow the party line. You will get called a Kremlin bot, a populist, a conspiracy theorist, accused of sucking up disinformation provided by pedophiles and you might lose your job, get cancelled and pecked & feathered.

Nice democracy :thumbsup:

Quote (Hobbiks @ Mar 13 2024 09:45am)

Nobody has said anything about democracy, don't know why you constantly deflect and start talking about other things. Are you interested in propaganda theory, yes or no? If not then just say so.

Quote (Ashirgo @ Mar 13 2024 09:48am)

The free internet is not the greatest place to discuss these things anyway, because it's filled with either propagandists or narcissists who just love to argue, lie and use broken logic until you give up. That's why I'm excusing myself in 99% from these conversations. It's possible that we also need some counter-troll farms here in the West, eventually.

Quote (Goomshill @ Mar 13 2024 04:14am)

French Newspaper Marianne claims to have been leaked high level confidential defense reports on the Ukraine war

https://www.marianne.net/monde/europe/guerre-en-ukraine-endurance-russe-echec-de-la-contre-offensive-ce-que-cache-le-virage-de-macron
https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1767562336452440422



Couldn't paint much more of a grim picture. That western forces have been completely mismanaged, that Russian forces and equipment are proving superior on the relevant wartime fronts like engineering and reliability and electronic countermeasures, that Russia is keeping reserve forces and rotating troops properly, that Ukraine is not. In particular, it talks about how dwindling Ukrainian troop levels are being complemented by non-uniformed western forces, US/British/French forces already fighting in Ukraine behind the front lines. Their internal report says Ukraine was losing 1000 men per day in the defense of Avdeevka and the new glide bombs like the FAB-1500 are just proving an overwhelming advantage.

Quote (Hobbiks @ Mar 13 2024 09:45am)

Nobody disagrees with that first sentence. If you were literate or actually read my replies you would actually see that you are in fact just repeating what I said.

Once again you are however unfortunately wrong, I can find multiple media outlets discussing Ukrainian deaths, one just from a few weeks ago. https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-troops-killed-zelenskyy-675f53437aaf56a4d990736e85af57c4 . You know what's sad to me Djunior, that you can't even tell when somebody is agreeing with you and then instantly turn around and lie. You don't need to lie to prove your point. There are multiple books, articles and research going as far back as the 60s discussing US hegemony and manufactured consent in the media. In media theory, nobody really disagrees that there is a propaganda system. The eastern media and propaganda system is however, as i have shown, different.

"Also, in the West you get punished in a weird way if you don't follow the party line" - Absolutely not. The reason you and a few other people in this thread are allowed to live freely, post your opinions and speculations online without state interference is because you do not live in Russia. If you did and you held views considered too out of the box, you would either be imprisoned (as per the extremist act) or in exile right now.

Nobody has said anything about democracy, don't know why you constantly deflect and start talking about other things. Are you interested in propaganda theory, yes or no? If not then just say so.

Edit: Autocorrect to wrong name

Quote (Djunior @ Mar 13 2024 10:07am)

That people are cancelled in the West or called populists cannot be denied. Hell, if politicians (rightly) point out the problems associated with mass migration (as an example) they might be called fascists.

Quote (Djunior @ Mar 13 2024 10:07am)

I simply commented on what you said and you reply with this shit

This was literally my first post. Where is the lie?


That people are cancelled in the West or called populists cannot be denied. Hell, if politicians (rightly) point out the problems associated with mass migration (as an example) they might be called fascists.

Quote (Ashirgo @ Mar 13 2024 10:09am)

That's nothing new. Try that in Russia.