Odessa, Dnipro, Zap, Kharkiv, Kyiv, Cherson and even Lviv are all getting attacked regularly. Combined, those cities make up around one third of the population in Kyiv-controlled Ukraine.

This is an appeal to emotion.

We could mandate permanent full employment by paying people to do jumping jacks, and then reject outright any proposed reduction to said employment scheme by pointing out that any cut will necessarily impact millions of jobs. Would this be good policy? I think you already know the answer.

Far and away the biggest escalation in this war, which had really been going on since 2014, has been Russia's wholesale invasion of all of Ukraine from Feb 2022. What exactly did the US do to spur this particular escalation?


The notion of spheres of influence clashes with the notion of national sovereignty. What this boils down to is "Ukraine must do as Moscow says, otherwise, they'll be bombed into submission." Is it really surprising that a lot of people reject this notion?


Not actually baffling once you think about it for more than 5 seconds. Nukes are horrible offensive weapons, not just because of their destruction and the contamination they leave behind, but also because their deployment almost inevitably leads to mutual destruction. Nukes provide a safeguard against a hypothetical NATO invasion of mainland Russia, but they would have a really hard time justifying the use of nukes if (theoretically) their conventional forces get defeated by the conventional forces of Ukraine while fighting on Ukrainian territory.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Mar 11 2024 01:51pm

refusing to negotiate, telling their allies, telling ukraine not to negotiate a peace.

There have been negotiations, but guess who rejected:
"Vladimir Putin's chief envoy on Ukraine told the Russian leader as the war began that he had struck a provisional deal with Kyiv that would satisfy Russia's demand that Ukraine stay out of NATO, but Putin rejected it and pressed ahead with his military campaign, according to three people close to the Russian leadership."
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/exclusive-war-began-putin-rejected-ukraine-peace-deal-recommended-by-his-aide-2022-09-14/

"Russian President Vladimir Putin continued to demonstrate that Russia is not interested in negotiating with Ukraine in good faith and that Russia’s maximalist objectives in Ukraine – which are tantamount to full Ukrainian and Western surrender – remain unchanged."
https://bcfausa.org/uncategorized/institute-for-the-study-of-war-putin-calls-again-for-overthrow-of-ukrainian-government/

Also how do you negotiate with leaders such as Medvedev who will never accept the legitimacy of Ukraine as a state?
Medvedev's statement further warns that no external force can protect Ukraine from the possibility of a new war. Regardless of agreements signed with the West, Medvedev asserts a one-hundred-percent likelihood of future conflict.
https://daryo.uz/en/2024/01/20/no-matter-who-is-at-the-helm-of-the-cancer-known-as-ukraine-it-will-have-no-legitimacy-or-legal-standing-medvedev-warns

100% agree. But those 4 million people being employed has a positive effect. That was the entire point.
I'd be interested in hearing your plan to dismantle the MIC.

Thats exactly what I wanted clarified. Nobody has ever approached that explanation to my knowledge in this thread, at least to me.
So your saying because Russians and Ukrainians have a special kinship, that is the justification/explanation for Russia to invade Ukraine.

Btw you made the clarification I was asking for then chose to also attack me? No need to lower the bar. There is some actual discussion happening for once.

Its true really and it backs up my own understanding of why Putin chose to invade. Its not about the threat of NATO. Its about the threat of ethnically/culturally similar Ukrainians being part of the Western sphere and what that could mean for a dictator of Russian people.
Russian people aren't stupid. They would notice pretty quickly that being in the EU, NATO, West, Democracy use whatever scope you like. Will bring a broadly better quality of life.

Being able to go, hey that Russian speaking Ukrainian across the Dnipro is just like me. Why am I still shitting outside?



They have nukes in their front garden already, whats the difference?

Ofthevoid answered what I asked you five times. Without an analogy.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Mar 11 2024 02:15pm

1. baltics are tiny nations and joined nato when russia was still very weak and world order was unipolar. I doubt russia would´ve let them join nato if it was 2020 (esp lativa)
2. finland & ukraine have very different historical relevance to russia. The finish population have very little to do with russia, a fair comparison would be west ukraine (lvov etc), i dont think russia cares if they fall into european sphere. Furthermore, finland is tiny and insignificant compared to ukraine.
3. There won´t be a serious insurgency, russia isn´t interested in west ukraine. West people fetishize their experiences with insurgencies of iraq/afgh (and to an extent vietnam) too much, ukranian conflict is quite different. The avg ukranian or even russian in tokmak just wants peace, russian or ukranian is secondary.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Mar 11 2024 02:33pm

No, what I'm saying is Ukraine was a red line because of this kinship. Smart people at NATO or in Washington weren't stupid and always knew how much Ukraine means to Russia and they still went ahead with a color revolution and now are supplying tens of billions to rip out Ukraine from Russia's sphere. They enflamed the situation in 2008 when it was announced intentions of folding Ukraine and Georgia into NATO way before any war in the Donbass. It would be the equivalent of some hostile power to the UK, supplying Ireland with weapons and pushing them towards war with the UK, funding anti-UK NGO's, buying politicians, etc, it would be unacceptable from UK's POV.

That's why in large part we are responsible for this war, because we upset that status quo fully knowing that it was a red line. And we now have the gall to spam "Russia's unprovoked war on Ukraine" across all the MSM on a daily basis for the daily revisionist programming of western audiences.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Mar 11 2024 02:25pm

Understand most of your position and respectfully disagree with most of it.

So why was Ukraine a redline because of kinship?



Thanks for your answer.
You don't foresee any insurgency in eastern Ukraine? You actually believe that?

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Mar 11 2024 02:34pm

Far missles=good
Close missles= bad

And it's not just muh nukes that putin perceived as a threat; it's also the obvious sigint that goes with javing American spooks in your backyard. Maybe putin didn't like the idea of undetectable f35s with first strike capabilities flying willy-nilly danger close.

Also no one's afraid of the royal navy and ancient diesel engines