It is a fact that Ukraine cluster bombed its own people for 8 years and unless I am living in some warped reality, I am pretty sure sites in Russia were attacked by Ukraine. This is a bit of topic at hand to be honest. The topic was that the United States and the United Kingdom have active forces in Ukraine. My understanding of your argument is that you deny this claim while all media outlets are literally running these stories, which the US and England are NOT REFUTING.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 11 2024 05:53am

You seem to have missed the entire point, unsurprisingly. You claim other people are discussing in bad faith but in reality, you should probably be a little introspective. Either way.

"You cannot stand it that Scott Ritter has an audience and now you cannot stand it that users simply point out that NATO is involved in Ukraine. Your wild accusations prove that." - I mean, again, if you want to provide evidence (such as a declaration of war) that the UK, the US and or NATO are currently at war, by all means, go ahead. I've asked to be provided that evidence multiple times but it never seems to show up. I'm starting to believe maybe it is, and i quote you: "wild accusations" rather than concrete and proven fact. So a conspiracy theory.

Again, you can feel free to provide the declarations of war. You yourself say that the US and England are not denying that they are currently at war and fighting in Ukraine, as such the evidence should be pretty easy to find. The White House has a website, for instance?

Well, for a start Ireland is not even in NATO

I personally don't agree. Doing so in itself would be escalatory and also create a security risks for those people.

Also I don't know to what scale and in what capacity UK or US people are in Ukraine.
But whatever the answer, it is not honest or accurate to then say something like "NATO are Ukraine" or "The US is fighting Russia"

If that was the case. If NATO began operating in Ukraine today at even 20% of its capacity. The war would end tomorrow. Horrificly for the Russian miltary within Ukraine.
Ukraine has in broad terms forced a stalemate against the Russian miltary with essentially no navy to speak of and extremely limited air power.

The capacity of NATO is not in question. The will to fight of certain members is certainly not a given.
That's why an actual deterent against aggression is even more important.

But thats the Point!! We are in some quasi reality where they are sending troops, directing operations, refusing to negotiate, but not declaring war, instead doing it all by Proxy. That surely is an issue for you or no ?



This war is the definition of a proxy war. Ergo, the US IS fighting Russia. They are sending the weapons, training the troops, picking the targets and ensuring there is no negotiated settlement. And yes if Nato as an "entity" went "above board" into Ukraine they WOULD obliterate Russia's conventional forces. Oh I wonder what the rat that is Russia would do then? lick its wounds? The logical response from Russia is the nuclear option, as that is exactly what any superpower would do when cornered.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 11 2024 06:07am

Russia have mercenaries from Nepal, India and China fighting in Ukraine.

Is China at war with Ukraine?

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Mar 11 2024 06:00am

You're moving the goalposts. No one talked about a declaration of war, we talked about NATO involvement in Ukraine. You sense your position is hopeless I guess

The spy satellites alone is proof of that. There is no way these can be called Ukrainian assets, they're US satellites and the data is interpreted by US (therefor NATO) intelligence officers meaning they're involved.

You can even call them combatants just like drone operators would be combatants when guiding a drone from outside Ukraine but killing Russians inside Ukraine.

You're losing it dude. NATO is involved up to their eyeballs. Ukraine is being supplied NATO weapons and NATO ammo and provided targeting data by NATO

And here you are, calling people who point that out conspiracy theorists. Do you miss the Covid days or something?

Asking for proof of clandestine ops is a strange hill to die on.
Anywho, in other news:

(Trump) He has a very clear vision that is hard to disagree with. He says the following: first, he will not give a single penny for the Russo-Ukrainian war. That's why the war will end, because it's obvious that Ukraine cannot stand on its own two feet. If the Americans don't give money and weapons along with the Europeans, the war will end. And if the Americans don't give money, then the Europeans won't be able to fund this war alone. And then the war will end."

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/10/7445822/

The US is not directing operations, if they are you would have to provide pretty concrete evidence. It is true that us military personel are training Ukrainians, nobody is denying this. That is not on the other hand the same as being at war. That would be like saying North Korea and China are at war with Ukraine because they are trading with Russia and providing arms. None of this is what would be constituted as a proxy war. Even if it was a proxy war then Russia still invaded a sovereign nation.

"Ergo, the US IS fighting Russia. They are sending the weapons, training the troops, picking the targets and ensuring there is no negotiated settlement." - This is not the definition of a proxy war. A proxy war would be Ukraine fighting on the behalf of the US who are themselves not directly involved. According to you, US and UK troops are directly involved (which you cant prove) meaning it wouldn't be a proxy war. Ukraine is also defending itself and their sovereignity and was before they got supplies from the US, proving once more that it cannot be a proxy war.

By this logic there's no war since Ukraine has mercenaries from Russia and vice versa. Just a special military operation In Soviet Russia special military operates YOU.

This post was edited by Norlander on Mar 11 2024 06:15am