Quote (Djunior @ Mar 11 2024 11:04am)

It's clear that US spy satellites are involved, the CIA is openly recruiting in Russia, Star Link is involved, US and NATO assets are patrolling the Black Sea (global hawk and AWACS planes for example)

In reality HIMARS and Patriot are very complex systems that require years of training and it's widely accepted that at the very least Western contractors are on the ground to assist the Ukrainians. This is simply NATO personnel without official uniform

You're not going to tell the Russians that NATO is not involved in Ukraine, they will laugh in your face

Quote (Hobbiks @ Mar 11 2024 10:07am)

A conspiracy theory is a theory, so a yet to be proven thesis, about a conspiracy, which is a group of people working together secretly to achieve a set goal. You have a theory about a conspiracy, which is that the UK and the US together with NATO are invading and fighting alongside Ukraine against Russia. A conspiracy theory. You have not proven that there is a malicious group working towards a set goal and you have not proven that NATO is currently in Ukraine.

The United States military is NOT fighting in Ukraine. Private people may be, but the United States is not currently at war in Ukraine. You are literally arguing points that not even Russia is making. Again, you are saying that the US is COVERTLY in a war against Russia, a thesis you CAN NOT PROVE. A conspiracy theory. A shadowy group of western elites are covertly in a war that you can not prove and have uncovered.

"These are facts. How are facts suddenly conspiracy theories?" - So first of all, facts can be conspiracy theories, a conspiracy can be proven to indeed exist, what makes something a conspiracy theory is the theory part, it is unproven.

"Do you want more links? Most critically, the US and the UK are not denying the allegations!" - Yes. I want the document from the US white house declaring war on Russia. Good luck.

"What are you talking about "that you have uncovered" can you not read the links provided ?" - None of the sources you have provided state that the US and UK are covertly and currently in a war with Russia. I don't know what you think your sources say, but none of them say that. Read my last post and try again.

" Yes of course mercenary companies should be banned because they do not operate under the same command structure and are more likely to have less accountability" - Good, then we agree. I would love to see Russian criminals, people living on the border of Ukraine who helped in the annexation of Chrimea and the multiple mercenary groups Russia has employed go home, aswell as the Ukrainian Foreign fighters. Wouldn't you agree?

Quote (ferdia @ Mar 11 2024 11:34am)

Just to be very clear here:

The United Kingdom and the United States have armed forces in Ukraine, supporting the war effort against Ukraine, even while they have no mandate to do so. Yes or No ?

Quote (Hobbiks @ Mar 11 2024 11:12am)

So here we run into two issues:

Nobody is saying that the CIA isn't operating or hasn't been operating in Ukraine, that is however not an act of war. The fact that you would even bring this up as some sort of argument tells me that you don't know much about the legality of war or operations in foreign countries.
Second of all, you are also creating a conspiracy theory. The Patriot System basic training is 10 weeks long. Maybe it takes a Russian or a chimpanzee multiple years to learn how to effectively use these systems but military specialists seem to learn how to use them pretty effectively in a relatively short period of time (as was always intended).

I don't care what some Russian farmer in Vladivostok thinks about NATO involvement, just like i don't care what a North Korean in Hamhung thinks about Juche.

Quote (Djunior @ Mar 11 2024 11:58am)

This is geo-politics we're talking about

Go tell the Russians NATO involvement in Ukraine is a conspiracy theory

gl

Quote (Hobbiks @ Mar 11 2024 12:00pm)

Why would I? I thought we were discussing on D2Jsp, i didn't realize i was having a debate with the entirety of the Russian people. Thanks for telling me, it's completely unconcering to me however.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 11 2024 10:59am)

It's wild that people can be against supporting allies that have been attacked but totally fine with a group of oligarchs pilfering the entire Russian state and sending a quarter million Russians to die.

Quote (Djunior @ Mar 11 2024 12:05pm)

This whole conflict is about geo-politics namely the West insisting that Ukraine becomes NATO / EU member (something they've been preparing for a long time) and Russia dead set to prevent that.

Wild accusations of conspiracy theories have no place in this discussion just like accusing users of "blindly sucking up disinformation provided by a pedophile" has no place in this discussion.

Hope that helps