there is a difference between foreign fighters and mercenaries (which are also fighting) vs foreign governments clandestinely involved in wars (what has now been "revealed").

You can't ban these kind of things. there will always be mercenaries. what I am saying is if a country is waging a war, but does not have a mandate to do so, the government of that country should resign for lying to its people. its as simple as that. If Nato has troops in Ukraine they should have said this on day 1. We now know that the USA had agents in Ukraine for the last 8 years and England has troops there. It would not surprise me if Poland and France also have troops there.



probably.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/02/27/cia-secret-spy-bases-ukraine-russia-kyiv/

I dont see Nato slapping the US or the UK on the wrists for having soldiers in Ukraine and it makes a mockery of "Nato is not in Ukraine". Its a little green man moment. They are literally putting on a different uniform and saying, nope we are not Nato today, nope we are not Russian soldiers we are freedom fighters, honest to god.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 11 2024 03:02am

I see your point but fundamentally disagree.

The current world order has contributed to preventing both global war and nuclear war for 80 years.

Is it perfect? Of course not.

But if we allow the current global order to disintegrate and if we erode the confidence of our allies thay the US' will oppose aggression then we open a Pandoras box of revisionist aggression and nuclear profileration.

False. If NATO was legitimately in Ukraine, the conventional ear would have ended long ago. Even Putin and Russians acknowledge this.

Rule based order LMAO

You mean the US makes the rules and gives the orders

It's exactly why Russia is talking about a multi polar world. Are you even paying attention?

I was asking Goomshill to provide the source and context from the picture that he posted where minors were holding guns. He was claiming that those were nazi children.
My response was that it’s not uncommon children in Eastern Europe are being trained on guns, it is present in Russia as well. This does not consequentially lead to the conclusion that they are nazis. I do not support the militarisation of children.

I did check the sources.
And I previously stated that I knew there were nationalists in Ukraine.

As for Valerii Zaluzhnyi and his picture with Bandera in the background this is quiet controversial, as Bandera is a Nazi collaborator. Now it seems that part of the Ukranians have an unrewarding stance with him that they say he was a national hero by fighting for Ukranian independence.
This is problematic since he was also a leading figure of the Banderites who have been part of massacres on Jews and Poles.

Now there are a couple of follow up questions that I would like to ask:
Does this justify a Russian invasion?
What crimes have these ultranationalists committed?
Does Zaluzhnyi support the killing of polish and jewish people?
What are the proportions of Ultra Right Nationalists compared to their whole population?

How much backing do right-wing extremists have in Ukraine?
There were undoubtedly nationalists present on Maidan as you could see their flags which you correctly pointed out. One of the guys who spoke was part of the Svoboda party which is an ultranationalist party in Ukraine. It currently holds 1 out of 450 seats in the Verkhovna Rada and lost approval following the 2014 elections.

I know a phenomenon from other countries that splinter groups are using rallies to instrumentalize them for their own cause, trying to increase their approval and committing questionable actions.

Likewise the approval for Svoboda was overproportionate in 3 out of 24 oblasts. So it has never been a nationwide tendency to support an ultranationalist party.

I can’t speak for your country, but in mine there are nationalist tendencies present within military forces, even special operational units. Every now and then I hear about a few cases in which they found nazi trappings. These people are usually removed from their positions and prosecuted.

Another case deals with a handful of people who had plans to overthrow the state. I personally wonder in this case how realistic this phantasy of a couple of people is.

It is also clear that as Ukraine is applying to become a member of the EU, it needs to prove that those ultranationalist tendencies are being actively investigated and accordingly dealt with on a state level.

TLDR: Are there ultra-nationalists present in Ukraine? Yes
Does this justify a denazification of Ukraine through a full scale invasion? Ask that yourself.

So first of all, nothing has been "revealed". NATO is, like said, not in Ukraine. It's a little interesting to me that at this point you are essentially building a massive conspiracy theory. To you there are literal clandestine operations (that you have uncovered) involving the UK and the US. What do you base this on? CIA had operatives in Ukraine and one British guy died from PTSD. Countries being invested in other countries foreign politics is NOT an invasion. Both the Soviet Union and the US were heavily invested in european countries during the cold war, and to my knowledge countries like Sweden, Norway or France weren't "invaded" just because there were (for instance) Stay Behind operatives in the respective countries.

I don't know what this has to do with my question though. You said banning mercenaries and foreign fighters wont be possible, but that wasn't what i asked. What do YOU think about foreign fighters and mercenaries and should they be banned? If you think they should be banned then will you also admit that you think Russia should pull out every mercenary or untrained person not currently employed by the military from Ukraine?

I personally think it should be banned, if that's a question you're interested in.

How is a fact suddenly a conspiracy theory ?

The United States IS in Ukraine. It has forces in Ukraine, and has had them there since 2014. It is actively involved in the war, covertly. Getting caught with your pants down is a big no no.
England IS in Ukraine. It has forces in Ukraine, and has had them there for some time (presumably since after 2022). It is actively involved in the war, covertly. Getting caught with your pants down is a big no no.

These are facts. How are facts suddenly conspiracy theories? They are actively involved in the war and they have basically admitted to it. How is this a conspiracy theory ? its a FACT.

What are you talking about "that you have uncovered" can you not read the links provided ? Do you want more links? Most critically, the US and the UK are not denying the allegations!

You cannot ban mercenary companies. Yes of course mercenary companies should be banned because they do not operate under the same command structure and are more likely to have less accountability (there are a variety of reasons).

but saying "should mercenary companies be banned" is like saying "should we take care of the environment" - we dont take care of the environment. People know simple right and wrong but they still do wrong.

Zaluzhny was Ukraine's top general and a popular figure in Ukraine. I don't think the EU has ever protested that Ukraine's army chief is a banderite.

The same with corruption by the way. Before the war corruption was called a big problem in Ukraine and corruption is a reason to block a country's EU membership bid.

The EU and Western media stated that nazis in Ukraine were a big problem. After the invasion --> crickets

All of this should tell you something, namely that you are being lied to. The EU simply insists that Ukraine becomes a NATO and EU member and using propaganda is allowed to reach that goal.


You post the same question "is an invasion justified". I already answered that IMO it's not but this is the risk the West deliberately accepted, it's 100% clear that NATO / the West understands this. If they don't understand this they're a bunch of amateurs.

You understand this too I'm sure. You perfectly understand that if this had happened to the US (for example Russia absorbing Mexico into a military alliance that puts weapons close to the US border) it would be completely unacceptable and the US would do everything needed to reverse that situation.

It's clear that US spy satellites are involved, the CIA is openly recruiting in Russia, Star Link is involved, US and NATO assets are patrolling the Black Sea (global hawk and AWACS planes for example)

In reality HIMARS and Patriot are very complex systems that require years of training and it's widely accepted that at the very least Western contractors are on the ground to assist the Ukrainians. This is simply NATO personnel without official uniform

You're not going to tell the Russians that NATO is not involved in Ukraine, they will laugh in your face

A conspiracy theory is a theory, so a yet to be proven thesis, about a conspiracy, which is a group of people working together secretly to achieve a set goal. You have a theory about a conspiracy, which is that the UK and the US together with NATO are invading and fighting alongside Ukraine against Russia. A conspiracy theory. You have not proven that there is a malicious group working towards a set goal and you have not proven that NATO is currently in Ukraine.

The United States military is NOT fighting in Ukraine. Private people may be, but the United States is not currently at war in Ukraine. You are literally arguing points that not even Russia is making. Again, you are saying that the US is COVERTLY in a war against Russia, a thesis you CAN NOT PROVE. A conspiracy theory. A shadowy group of western elites are covertly in a war that you can not prove and have uncovered.

"These are facts. How are facts suddenly conspiracy theories?" - So first of all, facts can be conspiracy theories, a conspiracy can be proven to indeed exist, what makes something a conspiracy theory is the theory part, it is unproven.

"Do you want more links? Most critically, the US and the UK are not denying the allegations!" - Yes. I want the document from the US white house declaring war on Russia. Good luck.

"What are you talking about "that you have uncovered" can you not read the links provided ?" - None of the sources you have provided state that the US and UK are covertly and currently in a war with Russia. I don't know what you think your sources say, but none of them say that. Read my last post and try again.

" Yes of course mercenary companies should be banned because they do not operate under the same command structure and are more likely to have less accountability" - Good, then we agree. I would love to see Russian criminals, people living on the border of Ukraine who helped in the annexation of Chrimea and the multiple mercenary groups Russia has employed go home, aswell as the Ukrainian Foreign fighters. Wouldn't you agree?