You know you're responding to a comment thread about Ukraine enslaving its own people to serve as cannon fodder in a hopeless war, right?

You are indirectly saying that. Your narrative is absolutely pro Russian (Zelensky decorates nazis) → Justification to invade?. Because this is what Russia used as one of their reason for the invasion. To get rid of Nazi government.




This is not just a conflict. This is a war. A slaughter. One country invading another, unprovoked. There is no emotions involved it’s just facts and to this day no human being has brought up any valid point why Ukranian people have to die needlessly.

You cannot invade a country simply because you think that their own foreign policy, which is peaceful, unprovocative, is wrong and does not comply with your own view. If you think otherwise you are asking for an invasion.



I know people from Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, Russia. They all want to live in peace. Russia is a threat in the region as evidence shows with the current invasion of Ukraine. Seeking for allies and relations in economy and military is a valid point. There is no legitimasation for invasion here.

The young people are striving toward’s EU not as a provocation to Russia because they are afraid of Russia, being imprisoned if they don’t not have the same views as the gov, if you are not able to speak as a free person. There is no democracy in Russia. You don’t know what it means to live in a state like that. Neither do I. But I talked to people who lived there and who just wanted to flee from it.



I do not approve of what US or other western countries have done in the 20th century. I certainly do condem the Russian gov’s actions in Syria, Ukraine, Africa. They are killing hundreds of thousands of people all over the world, including their own country, and it’s merely because they want to push their geopolitical interests ruthlessly foward.

Please tell me a reason why anyone would bomb a peaceful Russia? They don’t even bomb a Russia at war. This is an untenable claim that you are making, nobody ever spoke of that and I hear that from you for the first time.

Let me go through this one by one:
McCain

McCain was btw one of the few people to accurately predict that there will be a war in Ukraine.
This is a worthile watch I think https://www.facebook.com/inukraine.official/videos/back-in-2014-john-mccain-saw-it-all/671145098023377/

Mccain says: Your future, this is about you, about peace, about relations will all of your neighbors.

On a side note: I wonder why there is no Russian politicians speaking there.

In That video I see no guns, no hatred, no aggression towards Russia.
Now I don’t know if he should have mentioned that USA is with them, it is an indirect provocation towards Russia. But does that justify hundreds of thousands of killed people? Is that what you want to tell me?
The destiny of Ukraine lies within Europe and it’s quiet true because Ukraine is on the European continent. Yanukovich was elected because he had a pro European course that he later reverted. And this, along with incarceration of other diplomats (Yulia Tymoshenko ), increasing media censorship (https://akademie.dw.com/en/ukraine-restriction-of-press-freedoms/a-5792722) and growing corruption (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezhyhirya_Residence) led to protests. The orders to shoot over 100 protesters dead who were merely armed with wooden shields (is that what you call ukranian agitators backed by the west?) made him unbearable for the Ukranian government.


NATO welcoming Georgia and Ukraine back in 2008, NATO summit in Bucharest https://www.nato.int/docu/update/2008/04-april/e0403h.html

I never denied that Georgia, Moldova or Ukraine were seeking new partners, what is the matter though? Do you say this justifies a Russian invasion including hundreds of thousands of killed people? Ukraine never was and never will be a threat to Russia, this is all made up by Putin who wants to take Ukraine and make it a puppet state like Belarus. He hates independent states.
If you feel like that is a valid reason, Russia might as well invade Finland. Because they did decide to join NATO. Makes them a legitimate target, right?

Verhofstadt

So what you say is that any Eastern European state who welcomes politicians from Western Europe or the United States is a legitimate target for Russian invasion? Is that what you want to tell me? Seriously?
Okay so this is very interesting. Verhofstadt speeks openly in Ukraine about freezing assets of Ukranian politicians and the Ukranian people applaud him. Does this not show how much disharmony there was between the Ukranian people and their government at that point in time? You can also come to the conclusion that these are all paid pro western actors. Just like Russia claimed that the people who were bombed in a Russian hospital in Mariupol are also actors (can recommend the documentary „20 days in Mariupol“ if you want to see what a „liberation“ looks like)

Now this speech was held after already 77 people have been killed and another 500 injured. Still they didn’t falter to protest against the government.
https://www.thebulletin.be/former-belgian-prime-minister-addresses-protesters-kiev


The article goes on, stating that: Verhofstadt’s speech was criticised by Idesbald Goddeeris, an expert in Slavic culture at the University of Leuven. “The EU has only added fuel to the fire with Guy Verhofstadt’s intervention,” he told the Flemish radio programme Bonus. “We claim to be arbitrators, but in fact we have intervened because of motives other than freedom and democracy. If we had wanted to help Ukraine, we should have done so during the 2005 revolution.”
Verhofstadt dismissed the criticism as “completely absurd”. He said there was no hidden agenda and the EU was supporting the Ukrainian opposition in its demand for “an end to corruption, media manipulation and government violence”.

So it meant that they froze assets of Yanukovich government after he ordered to kill 77 people. Now as stated in the article it might have stirred some unrest in the Russian gov. But again: What does Russia have to do with Ukrainian affairs? In fact Russia called for an end to the conflict at the time which is only rarely mentioned. A valiant effort that did not last long unfortunately.

I also believe Verhofstadt that he says there was no hidden agenda. Look at his bio. This guy has been prime minister of Belgium and he does not have any interest to stirr up a conflict in that region.

Look at the scenery. Verhofstadt is not armed. He’s not putting a gun to anyone’s head to cheer for him. Sure he talks about what the people want to hear. They are dreaming of an independent Ukraine, not a Russian satellite state. And that’s why so many people have to die in Ukraine every day. Because Putin himself can’t stand a neighbor that does not abide by his will.

I was more expecting the genocide thing, cities being razed to the ground by Ukranians, bombing their own cities and people. It may well be that Ukranians killed Ukranians in the course.

But as a matter of fact and I’m sure that everyone here knows this is that Vladimir Putin is one of the most ruthless autocratic leaders on this planet. He does not care for the Russian minority in Ukraine, he does not care for his own people. He cares about being in power, removing any opposition, remaining there, extending his power, using all of Russias resources to build up their military, go to other countries and invade them.
The countries that he has invaded never proved to be any threat to him whatsoever. It is made up to find a reason for invasion. He is putting people in jail for several years for just holding up a white t-shirt or mentioning that the „special operation“ in Ukraine is a war.

While I do appreciate you post the first 2 videos, which by no means justify a Russian invasion into Ukraine. (There is no threat to Russia anywhere to be seen) , I don’t really feel like you should post a video where a 2nd in line politcian is swearing. I also find it arrogant from the people in the video giving advice to Ukranian officials on what they should or should not do. This is more an offense towards Ukranians than it is to Russians imho. It’s an alleged audio of 2 politicians I never heard of. This is an awkward video but again, there is no threat to Russia whatsoever here.
Sovereign, independent Ukranian people will not let US nor Russian officials tell them how they handle their own politics.

None of the sources you provided gives any reason for an invasion, killing hundreds of thousands in the process, deporting people and children to Russia. Settling Russian people on Ukranian territory.

I hope you never show this to Ukranian people as the reason why they were invaded. They would be very angry at you.

In general I find it disgusting how people try to desperately come up with reasons why Russia would invade Ukraine. Putin just doesn’t like Ukranian indepedency. That’s why he tries to remove independent Ukraine from the map and if he will win the war, which seems to be the case, there will no longer be an independent Ukraine but another Russian satellite state, build on the corpses of many Ukranian and Russian people who have died in vain of another needless war.

This is not between Ukranian and Russian people. They don’t hate each other. I know both nationalaties. I’ve been living together with Russian people. I have Ukranian refugees as my neighbors. They don’t want to kill each other, they want peace.

And yeah I have nothing else to say. If you think the sources you provided here justify an invasion then I can’t help you.

Its amazing how much text someone can write when it is just repeating "the other side are bad guys" over and over again, without critically examining the causes or geopolitical dynamics.
Russia annexed Crimea and invaded Ukraine because the pro-Russian democratic government was overthrown in a coup and they became a CIA vassal state that laid siege to the ethnic russian separatist regions. Russia did not upset the status quo ante, they were not the ones to spark the conflict. They had plenty of logical self-interested reasons to intervene in Ukraine in response to the EU/American intervention in Ukraine. The reasons exist and they are obvious. Trying to deny them by framing the conflict in some moral lens and labeling everyone else bad guys who do bad things because they're bad, is just dumb. They're autocratic, they don't care for their own people, they remove any opposition, they are invaders and orcs, they are corrupt and manipulate media and use government violence. Nevermind that Zelensky is autocratic, that he's sending his people to a meat grinder, that he banned/locked up/executes his opposition, that they laid siege to the separatists, that they are corrupt and manipulate media and use government violence. Our blessed homeland, their barbarous wastes.

Come up with sources.
Or talk to Russians and Ukrainians yourself one time.

Please show me evidence how Ukranians bombed their own cities.
You can't? Seriously where do you get your information? Post it. And just don't hit your keyboard without any evidence.
I did not praise Ukraine in any way. I also did not use the term orcs.

The war is a meat grinder for both sides yes. But at the end of the day. Russia is invading Ukraine. They could have backed out but instead they are killing innocent people every day.

Why are you ignoring the facts?

The war in Donbas, or Donbas war, was a phase of the Russo-Ukrainian War in the Donbas region of Ukraine. The war began 12 April 2014, when a fifty-man commando unit headed by Russian citizen Igor Girkin seized Sloviansk in Donetsk oblast. The Ukrainian military launched an operation against them.

This post was edited by Gala on Mar 8 2024 03:53pm

Talked to both



Ukraine never bombed its own cities because as soon as the coup d'etat occurred, they lost control of those cities and they don't belong to Ukraine anymore
Ukraine claims to bomb its own cities because Ukraine claims them, but what they really did was bomb Russian cities that used to be Ukrainian.

https://www.quora.com/Is-Donbas-part-of-Russia-or-Ukraine
Please look here
And you can post links yourself, show me what Russian occupied cities in Donbass look like who were allegedly bombed.
And in the same thread you see what cities look like that have been erased by Russia.

This post was edited by Gala on Mar 8 2024 03:59pm

Nobody pays me a few hryvnia every time I post a link, rational people are capable of analyzing geopolitics without spraying blue hyperlinks



Weird because what Russia has actually been doing is shuttling in all kinds of engineers and construction equipment to rebuild the cities it 'erased' and engage in all kinds of rapid construction in the regions being annexed.
Russia built Crimea the largest bridge in Europe, America gave Ukraine a bunch of bombs in hopes they could blow it up as Ukrainians died off en masse, and they still failed at 'erasing' it.
This is what most of Mariupol looks like right now- construction sites as they put up all kinds of infrastructure, residential buildings, utilities, etc:



But hey while Russia is actually investing heavily in rebuilding cities in its new territories, Brussels has hosted the mayor-in-exile of Mariupol to come up with a cloudcuckooland plan to invest billions of dollars nobody is giving him to have the west rebuild a city they don't control after winning a war they're losing. A whole bunch of folks in fancy suits shook hands and did photo ops at the 'Mariupol Reborn' event. And when Russians tried to show off footage from the Mariupol construction projects at their own public event in Modena, the EU censors stepped in and denied their free speech rights, because we're more into the Helldivers vision of Democracy

Is the facts and evidence dude now posting quora links

This thread is gold

What Russia is doing in Mariupol is ethnic cleansing. https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/08/ukraine-new-findings-russias-devastation-mariupol
They have deported the remaining Ukranians from Mariupol, some with force: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainians-deported-russia-besieged-mariupol-dream-home-2022-04-19/
Russia is responsible for erasing the buildings that previously stood there.
Now they are building them up with plans to settle native Russians there in order to finalize their invasion.

If you want to see Russian "liberation" in action I recommend you watch this documentary (trailer)




And you know what they are transporting to Crimea every day over that bridge? Military Equipment so they can keep bombing Ukranians
https://apnews.com/article/russia-crimea-ukraine-kerch-bridge-c3759176ab015796a1e21ca82f19e0c9

This post was edited by Gala on Mar 8 2024 04:26pm

Remember what I said about trying to make impotent moralizing arguments? You can just say "Slav man bad" because that's all I read this text as anyway



Russia is responsible for conquering a city in a war and rebuilding it after a war to support their allies and new territory, bravo, they're actually doing what America pretended to do in so many previous conflicts. The difference of their contractors actually putting up infrastructure in a short timespan that won't immediately be either destroyed or fall into the hands of their enemies after they're forced to abandon the country, like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. Quite the contrast with the US air force blowing up the Kajaki dam and then taking over 10 years to get the dam back online, only to lose it again to the Taliban. But hey, at least we built some fancy stuff for the goatherders.



And what does that make all the infrastructure used by the west to transport bombs so they can keep bombing Russians? All the factories in America, all the transatlantic shipping, all the roads and bridges, are they legitimate targets?
The largest bridge in Europe is a pedestrian and railroad bridge and used by vacationers. Its really something that America is now aping Al Qaeda and ISIS tactics to try to blow up large symbolic infrastructure with suicide bomb attacks, I'll try not to read into that much in some moralizing lens.