Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ Mar 8 2024 06:12pm)
you did and i watched it
the siege of a city and civilian casualties in that process are not genocide
and that number of 25k comes straight from selensky, all estimates by somewhat believable sources are WAY lower
you probably also believe the number of 31k ukranian combat deaths......
We don't have to continue this any further. You don't believe it's a genocide, I do.
I told you what are the conditions that need to be fulfilled in order for crimes to be a genocide and they are very well accomplished in Ukraine. I provided you with the relevant information.
Quote (Djunior @ Mar 8 2024 06:56pm)
If you want to add details why don't you add that NATO welcomed Georgia and Ukraine in 2008? (lmk if you need the official NATO source) and that Russia responded by announcing a complete overhaul of their armed forces shortly after that in response to that.
That the West pushed on regardless and backed a violent coup in 2014 (Euromaidan lmk if you need sources) and that the uprising in the East only happened after Euromaidan where the legitimate Ukrainian president was replaced by Western backed puppets that are completely dependent of Western support.
So what you are saying is that because Georgia, Ukraine and NATO have cordial relations, Russia is allowed to whipe them off the map? Kill elderly, children and rape women? What kind of person are you?
NATO is a defense alliance and due to Russian aggression it has grown.
I had the same discussion with InsaneBobb couple days back and I stated that Yanukovich was ousted by the Ukranian parliament because he lost all backing within the Ukranian population because he killed over 100 protesters and this led to violent protests. Please refer to my earlier posts I provided the evidence there.
I know Georgian people and Georgia is a very prominent country to take young Ukranian refugees because they do not want to live in their country of origin anymore.
Georgia is a peaceful country, yet Russia has invaded a part of Georgia whatsoever for no valid reason.
How many Russians did the West kill?
And your argument that NATO provoked Russian to invade other countries is complete nonsense. Welcome to Russian propaganda world.
And yes I want your sources
Quote (ferdia @ Mar 8 2024 06:17pm)
Why dont you just state your position clearly. Do you agree that 2014 was a coup and that Ukraine bombed its own people over the next 8 years with cluster bombs. Yes or No ? I think this is a very good starting point for anyone new to the topic.
The New York Times and the Washington post, and alot of western media are, quite frankly, compromised. They do not accurately report facts.
There are 2 narratives as I understand it. They are:
Narrative 1: Ukraine was minding its own business when Russia, unprovoked, attacked Crimea. Then, some years later, unprovoked, Russia attacked Ukraine and if we dont watch out they are going to next invade poland and germany (for no reason other then imperialism).
Narrative 2: A US backed coup replaced the government of Ukraine with hand picked people (picked by the US). Russia annexed Crimea so as to (a) secure its naval base and (b) to safeguard the ethnic russians living there (more then 70%). Ukraine built up its military with billions of money from the US, while shelling eastern ukraine (who did not recognise the Kyiv government). UN and HRW both produced multiple reports on the events and Russia kept complaining. The US and Russia talked, the talks went no where, so Russia invaded. As it stands Russia has created a landbridge to Crimea and have stated their intent to claim all lands east of the Dniepo River.
I don’t agree with you. You claim that 50k civilians were killed by Ukranians in the Donbass war. There is not a single source to back this up. Let me drop some numbers here which I found
„About 14,000 people were killed in the war: 6,500 Russian and Russian proxy forces, 4,400 Ukrainian forces, and 3,400 civilians on both sides of the frontline. „
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_DonbasThe armed conflict in Eastern Ukraine started in 2014. Between then and early 2022, it had already killed over 14,000 people.
https://www.crisisgroup.org/content/conflict-ukraines-donbas-visual-explainerEven Putin claims a number of 14k people so I don’t know from where you get that 50k.
I found the claim of 50k civilian deaths in post
https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=92094408&f=119&p=658634607 but there was no link for any evidence provided and I couldn’t find any number as nearly as high as that. So yes, please, provide your evidence.
Quote (ferdia @ Mar 8 2024 06:17pm)
The New York Times and the Washington post, and alot of western media are, quite frankly, compromised. They do not accurately report facts.
I have watched hundreds if not thousands of reports from the war in Ukraine and I'm spreading out to as many different media outlets as I possibly can.
False information is and consequently will be an issue. And I'm not a friend of the pro Ukranian bias either.
Feel free to give me any source you like and I will check it.
As stated in a different post, I do not possess any sort of almighty wisdom, I also make false claims but I do expect from people that they are doing their own research.
Concerning your narratives:
Starting with Narrative 1:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation Russia's reason for the invasion of Crimea: "Defence Minister Sergey Shoygu said the country's military actions in Crimea were undertaken by forces of the Black Sea Fleet and were justified by "threat to lives of Crimean civilians" and danger of "takeover of Russian military infrastructure by extremists"."
I do not agree with this statement. If you don't please provide your evidence.
I'm not 100% certain if it was unprovoked or not, but Russia is usually making things up to justify an invasion. The above statement does resemble exactly that.
All in all yes Russia attacked Ukraine unprovoked. Otherwise please hand me the plans by Ukraine to invade Russia.
Putin stated that he wants a great Russian Empire again so yes his actions can be summarized under neo-imperialism
"Putin has made no secret of his desire to revive Russian influence throughout his country's former imperial domains, and has publicly lamented the fall of the USSR as the “disintegration of historical Russia under the name of the Soviet Union.”"
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-dreams-of-a-new-russian-empire-are-unraveling-in-ukraine/He will not invade Germany, Poland and Russia are not on good terms though. Most of the Russian warfare is political, spy activities, hacking.
Before Russian invasion of Ukraine the world didn't want to believe that Russia would seriously do it. Yet they did.
Putin is a liar.
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-crisis-putin-says-military-drills-purely-defensive-and-not-a-threat-as-western-leaders-warn-invasion-imminent-12545284Narrative 2:
The funny thing is that every time a government in eastern Europe is not pro Russian it is declared a western puppet regime by Russia.
Here's what Wikipedia says and I agree with it: "Some of his own party voted for his removal. On 24 February 2014, the new government issued a warrant for Yanukovych's arrest, accusing him of being responsible for the killing of protestors. Yanukovych went into exile in Russia, claiming to still be the legitimate head of state."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_YanukovychI don't believe the voted parliament who ousted Yanukovych was a western puppet regime. Sure they all have interests but the reason why he was ousted (he moved away from trade negotiations with the EU for which he has been initially elected) is plausible.
It might well be that Putin saw his interests in Russia/Crimea at danger so he started an operation to claim Crimea. The genocide from Ukranians against Russian minorities is a hoax and I'm still waiting for anyone to provide any relevant evidence here. I still debate the shelling of eastern Ukraine by Kyiv but I will thoroughly check your and other sources as well.
As a matter of fact Russia has invaded an independent Ukraine and anybody saying otherwise is straight up delusional. Nobody would consider Ukraine a threat to Russia.
And yes Ukraine has received billions in military aid, particularly to protect their people and their country from the Russian invasion
Quote (ferdia @ Mar 8 2024 06:38pm)
Okay I briefly checked the link you provided here and I will do further research as if these statements can hold true, especially considering that you stated tens of thousands were killed by cluster ammunition which I highly doubt since Ukraine has never possessed such an arsenal of cluster munition.
But here you are already contradicting yourself by stating that 50k civilians were killed when the numbers from Wikipedia say up to 14.400 deaths, which includes military personnel.