Dude your on a genocidal flip flop from day to day

Only as long that's the justification of the day for Russia's actions. On other days, the crux is supposed to be NATO encroachment. Russian propaganda channels seem kinda indecisive if the invasion was a defensive mission to protect the Russian-minority in Ukraine, or if it was a geopolitical reaction against Western aggression.



I do not trust that regular Ukrainian or Russian troops are paragons of virtue in warfare, either. You're introducing an impossibly high standard which was never met by any of our allies in any previous wars.


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What Western decision making as well as most of our disagreements and debates come down to are the following three questions:

1) Is it in our interest to stop Russia here?
2) Is it in our interest for Ukraine to come out of this conflict as strong as possible?
3) How strong is our interest in this outcome, how much are we willing to give up?


The answers to 2) and 3) are "eh, not really" and "not particularly much". Which is the reason for the weak and reluctant Western support for Ukraine. What sets most posters in this thread apart, however, is that their answer to 1) is a 'no', rather than a 'yes'. Stuff like complaints about the corruption in Ukraine or the nazi presence which is higher than what we're used to in the West to me seem like ex post rationalizations for this pre-existing opinion that opposing Russia in this conflict isn't worthwile.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Feb 13 2024 11:58am

I'm consistent in my views! Both groups - the Hamastinians as well as the Ukrainian neo-nazis belong in penal labour colonies

Ukraine could end this war in 1 day by prohibiting all neo-nazi organizations (Putin stated this very clearly in the interview) along with handing over all battalions to Russia to face justice (minimum 20 years hard labour)

https://archive.is/V8shs


Reuters, and only reuters, reporting that in december-january Russia reached out to American diplomats in a back channel seeking a ceasefire deal, offering to freeze the conflict along status quo lines with no further concessions from either side. And America rejected this ceasefire, on the basis that they would not negotiate without Ukraine and Ukraine would refuse to negotiate, nevermind that Ukraine is going to do whatever America tells them to do. So basically, Putin offered a flat ceasefire and Biden rejected it

Difficult to tell, if you ask me. I'm generally allergic to reports which are based on nothing but uncorroborated claims from anonymous sources. And in this case, it's anonymous sources from the side which has a clear and evident interest in undermining Western support for this war. On the other hand, the denials from the American side are meaningless - if the claims in the article were true, the Americans would obviously deny deny deny. So there's also no real evidence for the Russian claims to be untrue/made up, either.

If true, it would be a big leadership failure by the Biden admin. I get that they don't want to negotiate a ceasefire behind Ukraine's back, but outright shutting down this communication channel without even talking with the Ukrainians about it seems asinine. In particular, the Biden admin should have made it clear to Zelensky that further US military and financial aid is highly uncertain and not something on which he should gamble the future of his country.

The biggest crux, however, is if we can trust Putin to be serious about a ceasefire, and if the conditions of the ceasefire would be suitable to enable lasting peace. Regarding the trustworthiness, I would say a Russian proposal right now would have more credibility than similar proposals from 9 months ago since they currently have the initiative and the momentum.

quite surprising from Reuters. what is all this negative press about Biden, is Michelle Obama / Gavin Gavin Newsom a white whale or is this in the realms of possibility ? do they really think that Biden can win against Trump? Trump is looking very strong against Biden right now.



Do you have a general view of Reuters ? as a media wing for the US government I mean.

Also, what is your current view of Russia's goals re: Ukraine? IMO If Russia wanted all of Ukraine it would have conscripted a few million men already, surely a ceasefire is logical from a Russian perspective or how do you see this ? The Russians have for years now repeated stated their wish for a ceasefire, or do you believe this is a lie ? Ukraine has repeatedly stated they will not negotiate with Russia, do you believe this is not their intent? USA has repeatedly stated they will support Ukraine, do you believe this is untrue? Have you read the material that came out recently re: USA and Boris Johnson and last years negotiations? do you believe thats all lies ? There are multiple sources supporting the assertion that the USA (and Ukraine) has rebuffed all attempts at a ceasefire.

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with brevity, Ukraine wants all of Ukraine back but lacks the means to do it. Russia appears happy with what it has and has, for over a year now, sought peace. this looks factual to me. We had this same argument last year - Ukraine is not willing to accept these terms therefore the war rages on, the net consequence is Ukraine is likely to lose more land and more people (russia will also lose alot of men).

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/09/us/politics/biden-putin-tucker-carlson-peace.html

This post was edited by ferdia on Feb 13 2024 04:09pm

Never underestimate Trump's chance to shoot himself in the foot. And don't underestimate how much large swaths of the American public hate his guts. He can definitely win, I would even say he's the slight favorite as of today. But I don't believe for one second that Trump can win in a landslide, or that he's nearly as favored as he should be based on the polls and approval ratings.




Reuters is one of the few remaining news agencies without overt partisan bias. They have some geopolitical bias in favor of the US, but so do most other news agencies in favor of their respective master.


I don't know the details of this most recent ceasefire proposal, but in the past, Russia has repeatedly asked for terms which amount to a total surrender of Ukrainian sovereignty. The crux will be if the remainder of Ukraine is allowed to join the EU and/or NATO if it officially cedes the Russia-controlled pieces of its territory.





I don't think so. If Russia was happy with what it has and sought peace, they wouldn't continue, or even intensify, their attacks. Why do they keep throwing huge amounts of meat and materiel at the frontlines, why do they keep shelling cities across all of Ukraine? Why did they just announce that they will invest massively into arming up their military over the coming years if all they strive for is holding the territory which they just defended successfully this summer with the current investment level?

None of this adds up. If Russia sought peace, they could stop shelling cities across Ukraine for a couple of weeks, as a gesture of goodwill, and then publicly announce "the territory we took belongs to us now. Acknowledge it and we will have peace. Try any new counteroffensive and the shelling starts again." The war-weary Western public, and presumably a significant chunk of Ukraine's population, would gladly take such a deal.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Feb 13 2024 04:31pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68292602

Russian landing ship Caesar Kunikov sunk off Crimea, says Ukraine
By Paul Kirby
BBC News
14 February 2024, 08:36 GMT
Updated 2 minutes ago