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Feb 13 2024 06:58am
Senate passed it's foreign aids bill. 70-29

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-heads-toward-final-passage-ukraine-aid-bill-2024-02-13/#:~:text=WASHINGTON%2C%20Feb%2013%20(Reuters),Republican%2Dcontrolled%20House%20of%20Representatives.

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Feb 13 2024 07:04am
Quote (RedFromWinter @ Feb 13 2024 01:58pm)
Senate passed it's foreign aids bill. 70-29

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-heads-toward-final-passage-ukraine-aid-bill-2024-02-13/#:~:text=WASHINGTON%2C%20Feb%2013%20(Reuters),Republican%2Dcontrolled%20House%20of%20Representatives.


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Feb 13 2024 07:18am
Quote (Djunior @ Feb 13 2024 01:04pm)


i find it impossible to refute this statement.

It is a crazy world we live in, where we can see that the US has serious internal issues, and they are still focusing all of their attention outwards.

Quote (Goomshill @ Feb 13 2024 11:33am)
Nope. Not even close. When I say Nazi I mean Nazi. There are all kinds of ultranationalists around the world that I don't have any existential grudge against. I don't have any bone to pick with Hindu ultranationalists chanting Jai Shri ram, and I don't have any bone to pick with the Khalistanis. Until they bring their conflict to my doorstep. Otherwise, you know what I think about their conflict? Nothing. Because its not my problem and I have no reason to care. Being a nationalist has no moral connotation, but being a Nazi sure as hell does. Anyone who chooses to be a Nazi in 2024 should absolutely be condemned and repudiated and I'm not going to bemoan a thermal optics drone dropping a grenade on their head.
And I can only wonder how many times I've said this before on PARD, but its really easy to figure out which ones are actually the Nazis because they're the ones waving Nazi flags, tattooing SS symbols and black suns and swastikas on themselves, posing with framed portraits of Nazis, and unironically handing out copies of the fucking Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf on the streets of Kiev while they overthrew the government. Because I guess they thought cryptonazism made hitler adoration so ambiguous that they just had to make sure that a decade down the line, folks like you couldn't employ a no true scotsman argument to try to deny their Nazi identity.

I don't have moral grievances, I have pragmatic geopolitical grievances, and last I checked America wasn't arming Russia to kill Ukrainians. Its not my conflict and I should have no reason to care. Unlike Israel who are US allies, under the US sphere of influence and protection, and vastly overproductive and achieving contributors to western society. I've heard of the Israeli bandage and RSA encryption and USB drives and the Iron Dome, all I've heard of Russia's historical breadbasket is that they live like Dilbert's Elbonian mudwaders except with more corruption. I have a thousand reasons why its against our geopolitical interests to support a losing war against Russia that doesn't secure any gains for us but destroys an entire country in the process.

But if I had to pick up a moral grievance, than I'd say America has failed in the past by being both too interventionalist when it serves no greater good like Iraq and Syria, and not interventionalist enough when we could have averted massacres like Rwanda and Serbia. And when it comes to the latter, I'd be generally inclined to say in a vacuum America should have a moral responsibility to quash a Nazi revolutionary regime that overthrew a democratic government and instituted a repressive tyranny. So if it weren't for the fact Ukraine's government is a puppet of our making, I'd probably support the idea that America should have invaded Ukraine and bombed the fuck out of the Azov Battalion, instead of Russia having to do it.


I think its a case of selective blindness to facts in the face of circumstances. The simple fact is that the ultranationalist (read; Nazi) issue which exists in Ukraine is seen as an acceptable situation, to be defended and brushed off, in the face of a larger goal of defeating Russia. For the most part I see people either brushing the issue off or simply downplaying it, i.e. the ends justify the goal. I dont agree with this position but I accept thats where we are. While we dont dwell on it, for Putin it is a serious issue noting they are literally his neighbors.

This post was edited by ferdia on Feb 13 2024 07:30am
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Feb 13 2024 07:49am
Quote (ferdia @ 13 Feb 2024 14:18)

I think it’s a case of selective blindness to facts in the face of circumstances. The simple fact is that the ultranationalist (read; Nazi) issue which exists in Ukraine is seen as an acceptable situation, to be defended and brushed off, in the face of a larger goal of defeating Russia. For the most part I see people either brushing the issue off or simply downplaying it, i.e. the ends justify the goal. I dont agree with this position but I accept thats where we are. While we dont dwell on it, for Putin it is a serious issue noting they are literally his neighbors.


I think this will end up destabilizing the whole region for years whichever way this war ends. Assassinations, terrorism and mob violence against everyone deemed a subhuman or simply in the their way. Imagine being a European politician that voted against Ukraine and in favour of their own country’s interests? You might get a visit from a visa-free Mykola.

It’s quite reasonable to argue that supplying weapons to a country that is defending itself against an invasion is a morally just thing.

Supplying weapons to murderous Neo Nazis is whole new level of scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Back in the days there existed explicit provisions against arming people that extrajudicially execute everyone they don’t like for the fuck of it. It’s OK these days somehow.

2018: http://khanna.house.gov/media/in-the-news/congress-bans-arms-ukraine-militia-linked-neo-nazis

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Feb 13 2024 08:46am
Quote (Goomshill @ 13 Feb 2024 09:08)
I mean its pretty trivial to pick apart
Do Nazis hold significant political power in Russia?

No, because Russia is a sham democracy and de facto dictatorship in which no one besides Putin holds real political power.

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Do they in Ukraine? Do Nazis have their own military unit in Russia?

Certainly not after Wagner was integrated into the Russian military.

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Do they in Ukraine? Do the leaders and politicians of Russia pander to the interests of Nazis? Do the Ukrainians?

Ukraine is a smaller country desperately trying to fend off a much larger enemy. They are in a fight for their survival as a nation, so they can't be too picky about which units they field. When you're in Ukraine's position, and you have a bunch of useful idiots who want to fight on your behalf, are willing to never surrender and sacrifice their lives for your cause, basically volunteering as cannon fodder, you don't deny them.
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Feb 13 2024 08:59am
Ukraine might not be able to be picky about who fights their battles, but we sure can
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Feb 13 2024 09:54am
Quote (Goomshill @ 13 Feb 2024 15:59)
Ukraine might not be able to be picky about who fights their battles, but we sure can

By this logic, the US should not have supplied Stalin during WW2.
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Feb 13 2024 10:14am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Feb 13 2024 06:46am)
No, because Russia is a sham democracy and de facto dictatorship in which no one besides Putin holds real political power.


Certainly not after Wagner was integrated into the Russian military.


Ukraine is a smaller country desperately trying to fend off a much larger enemy. They are in a fight for their survival as a nation, so they can't be too picky about which units they field. When you're in Ukraine's position, and you have a bunch of useful idiots who want to fight on your behalf, are willing to never surrender and sacrifice their lives for your cause, basically volunteering as cannon fodder, you don't deny them.


And the war crimes, torture and mass killings that those useful idiots commit... not a big deal right? There are more rational justifications for terror in war than convenience & warm bodies
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Feb 13 2024 10:50am
Quote (El1te @ 13 Feb 2024 17:14)
And the war crimes, torture and mass killings that those useful idiots commit... not a big deal right? There are more rational justifications for terror in war than convenience & warm bodies


Aaaand we're back to square one, back to the Russian propaganda lie that "Ukrainian nazis were systematically massacring innocent civilians in the Donbass", leaving Russia no other choice than to intervene (by marching on Kyiv and shelling residential districts across the country :rolleyes: ).

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Feb 13 2024 10:50am
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Feb 13 2024 10:54am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Feb 13 2024 08:50am)
Aaaand we're back to square one, back to the Russian propaganda lie that "Ukrainian nazis were systematically massacring innocent civilians in the Donbass", leaving Russia no other choice than to intervene (by marching on Kyiv and shelling residential districts across the country :rolleyes: ).


It seems the entire debate revolves around whether you believe that war crimes have been systematically committed by these Ukrainian government-sanctioned neo-Nazi groups

I think denial of these atrocities is deplorable & was the standard practice of Nazi Germany during WWII..

I for one do not trust that loud and proud Sonnenrad, Wolfsangel & Swastika-bearing neo-Nazi battalions are paragons of virtue in warfare
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