The best signal of what it would take for peace to happen is to basically look at what Russia was asking as part of Minsk 2 or subsequent calls. They kept asking for 1.Ukraine not be in NATO 2. Autonomy for pro Russian east.

Fast forward to today, those asks didn't materially shift. They still demand no NATO but now they're basically looking to keep the Donbass. To me that is the reality for condition of peace, with neither of those asks making the 80% of leftover Ukraine a vassal to Russia, that's why when people keep saying surrender all of Ukraine to Russia I scratch my head and think where is that ask actually coming from, because the Russians are actually telling you what they want.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Feb 6 2024 12:29pm

+1 here from me. we are at this long enough to be of the same mind on this issue.

Of course, even If I said no, I would expect you to anyway.

This post was edited by Cascadian on Feb 6 2024 02:52pm

Yep. Nothing's changed on Russia's side since 2021. Ukraine is pushing the war because their clown leadership would rather sacrifice all of Ukraine's men while getting fat cutouts for themselves before abandoning ship.

I just don't think a full Ukraine implosion is really likely because how would it even work? The far right ultranationalists are the faction who could overthrow Zelensky, but would only harm their own ends in doing so. They're more militant and have more reason to fight a losing battle, are less likely to negotiate a peace, and would lose the western backing and leave the country vulnerable to being overrun by Russia. In Afghanistan, nobody had any reason to continue fighting when the American money funnel dried up, they simply bribed each other to stand down and the whole country fell rapidly. Can't happen in an active warfront with a hostile foreign power. I think that in the unlikely scenario of Ukrainian collapse, it would just be chaos in Kiev and a power vacuum.

The actual key difference is that Germany had already lost the war by 1943 and any further fighting only delayed the inevitable. With Ukraine, it's different, there is no reason why it should be impossible for them to hold on to most of the territory they currently control.







Sorry, but I think you're being horrible naive here. Russia is not looking to get a puppet installed in Kiev yet again? This whole conflict started when the previous Russian puppet was booted from office back in 2014! They are only concerned about NATO, but Ukraine joining the EU would be totally fine for them? This whole conflict erupted over Ukraine signing an association agreement with the EU (which the parliament supported, but the president vetoed at the 11th hour), not NATO!



Generally speaking: if Russia is only looking to take what they alreay hold right now, why do they keep ferociously attacking Ukrainian frontlines, why do they keep shelling Ukrainian cities all across the country? Why did they just announce their long-term plans to drastically increase their military capacities over the coming years if their only goal is to hold territory which they just defended successfully with their current spending levels? Actions speak louder than words, and the Russian actions very clearly tell us that they have always wanted, and continue to strive for, more than the present-day status quo.

Well they tried that since 2014...And 14,000 Ukrainian Russians were killed from constant attacks by azov military.. They need to destroy that fraction of hate on Russians to co exist peacefully ... So no choice but to continue the war for now.. The few times they did make a peace deal.. Ukraine and nato forces never followed the deal..Even the wheat deal Ukraine did not keep it.. Yes actions speak louder ..But you can ignore all that and just follow the hate

There was a coup in Ukraine in 2014. The standing government was overthrown and fled to Russia. The new government promptly started massacring ethnic Russians in Crimea and the Donbask Republics because they weren't happy with the new order and declared independence. Crimea tried to succeed multiple times, and after more attacks than you could shake a fist at, they opted to join Russia. How many times was a new vote demanded by Kiev and the US, while attacks continued on the voters themselves? Then the Republics cry for help, the Biden Administration pushes the NATO talks, and boom! Russia's in, helping the Republics secure their territory, and helping to rebuild the damage Kiev has done.

Russia's stated goal was ALWAYS to secure the independence of the Republics, and while they're taking them in as Protectorates, that's still the goal. When Ukraine is expending their entire population to try to kill Russia and their allies in the Republics, ofc they're trying to hold ground. That's all they were trying to do in the first place. There was never any "invasion" of Ukraine. There was a feint to prevent early reinforcements to Donbas from Kiev. Other than that, the majority of the fighting has been in and on the borders of the Republics.

Why would Russia want to increase military funding after the results they've seen? It might be that the entire west has been funding and arming the Ukrainians and sending them into the meat grinder to the point where the next generation of Ukrainians is now in doubt. If the West can push Russia's neighbors into that, maybe Russia should prepare for worse.

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Feb 6 2024 09:50pm

the hogs just cant wait