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Dec 30 2023 01:13pm
If Russia wins, how likely are those of us on PaRD to travel there?

I'd love to travel to Ukraine but if it's controlled by a Russian puppet I would never go there. Part of a trip there would be to support the economy, but if it's controlled by traitors I wouldn't go.

This post was edited by IceMage on Dec 30 2023 01:17pm
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Dec 30 2023 01:16pm
I see a lot of repeated comments here from people trying to discuss Russian economy, GDP as well as factually wrong claims such as quote:

Quote
Their GDP is almost entirely built on the extraction of oil and natural gas though. And their GDP per capita is far lower than that of Western countries


I’ve spent countless posts here trying to explain this, but here is an article by ex Euromoney/Banker chief deep diving into Russian facts and numbers:
https://intellinews.com/russia-overtakes-germany-to-become-fifth-biggest-economy-in-the-world-in-gdp-on-a-ppp-basis-286944/

This post was edited by Malopox on Dec 30 2023 01:18pm
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Dec 30 2023 01:26pm
Quote (IceMage @ Dec 30 2023 07:13pm)
If Russia wins, how likely are those of us on PaRD to travel there?

I'd love to travel to Ukraine but if it's controlled by a Russian puppet I would never go there. Part of a trip there would be to support the economy, but if it's controlled by traitors I wouldn't go.


Many pardians fear being mobilized too much to return to Russia.

Much safer to stay in the West and devise new frameworks to explain why its been a succesful outcome for Russia.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Dec 30 2023 01:28pm
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Dec 30 2023 01:29pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 30 Dec 2023 20:26)
Many pardians fear being mobilized too much to return to Russia.


… return to Ukraine you mean.

That / was entertaining while he lasted. I wonder if he will be able to receive EU refugee support once Ukrainians cancel his passport for dodging mobilization as proposed by Zelensky.

Read up on how mobilization and draft works in Russia, it’s available for free on the internet in English. You are also welcome to drop by Russian D2JSP section and ask yourself how many of them are in the army now.
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Dec 30 2023 01:39pm
Quote (Malopox @ Dec 30 2023 07:29pm)
… return to Ukraine you mean.

That ^lvivz / ^uber23 was entertaining while he lasted. I wonder if he will be able to receive EU refugee support once Ukrainians cancel his passport for dodging mobilization as proposed by Zelensky.

Read up on how mobilization and draft works in Russia, it’s available for free on the internet in English. You are also welcome to drop by Russian D2JSP section and ask yourself how many of them are in the army now.


No I mean Russia.

I'll 100% pass on that, thanks.
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Dec 30 2023 01:44pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 30 Dec 2023 20:39)
No I mean Russia.

I'll 100% pass on that, thanks.


Then you should really consider self educating once you are done painting your top 10 list of hypocrites with those crayons I recommended you earlier.
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Dec 30 2023 02:10pm
Quote (Malopox @ Dec 30 2023 07:44pm)
Then you should really consider self educating once you are done painting your top 10 list of hypocrites with those crayons I recommended you earlier.


Right, sure.

You should really consider refreshing your knowledge of the forum rules.

https://forums.d2jsp.org/info.php?p=9
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Dec 30 2023 02:55pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 30 Dec 2023 21:10)
Right, sure.

You should really consider refreshing your knowledge of the forum rules.

https://forums.d2jsp.org/info.php?p=9


Calling your hypocrisy out does not violate these forum rules. In fact your post right here is the prime definition of hypocrisy as you flame, insult, post racist remarks, degrade your opponents, harass and bully everyone who disagrees with you.

You have on numerous occasions gratified violence against civilians going as far as posting drone strike videos with dead bodies for which you have been promptly suspended by the moderating team.

I also remember you got so over your head you got yourself warned and had to resort to attacks in PMs to several users here as you were unable to keep posting.

Have you read the rules yourself? Do you have anything of value to add to this thread besides constant insults and trolling?

This post was edited by Malopox on Dec 30 2023 03:11pm
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Dec 30 2023 02:58pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Dec 30 2023 01:40pm)
Virtually all of the territory they gained was taken either during the first couple of days of this invasion, when Russia still kinda had the element of surprise, and when Ukraine did not have hundreds of billions worth of Western military equipment at its disposal yet. Or they were taken after the Russian artillery had bombed them into the absolute ground.

Holding ground against an enemy who does not have air dominance, after you've had half a year to fortify your positions (because your enemy's allies were too slow and reluctant to fuel his counteroffensive), is neither surprising nor something to write home about.

The "hundreds of billions of Western arms supplies for Ukraine"-talking point is peak silliness, considering that the Russians pumped at least the same amount of resources into this war. If we had sent the Ukrainians 80 F16 jets, thousands of top-notch cruise missiles and hundreds of cutting-edge tanks, and the Russians had held off the counteroffensive anyhow, then they would have a reason to celebrate.

As you might remember, I've (mostly) been against the economic sanctions since the get go. ;)

Agreed, but that's a really big IF. I, for my part, highly doubt that Russia will thrive economically anytime soon.

No. This makes their manufacturing more resilient and self-sustaining, but it doesn't necessarily make it stronger or more competitive. The reality is that Russian manufacturing (as well as other industries) will fall even further behind technologically than they already were to begin with. Their cars have regressed to the technological state that Western and Asian carmakers had during the 90s...

Their GDP is almost entirely built on the extraction of oil and natural gas though. And their GDP per capita is far lower than that of Western countries. We can borrow $100k per capita and our debt to GDP ratio goes from 90% to 100% or so; if Russia does the same, their debt to GDP ratio skyrockets from 15% to 80%. (Numbers not exact, just for illustrative purposes.)


Too much to respond to, so ill keep it to a few things.

1.They control most of the valuable parts of Ukraine, which is most of the Donbass (which has gas, oil and other minerals) and Crimea which has extremely high strategic importance to them. It doesn't matter since when they hold that territory, if they cared about just gobbling random land mass there's sparsely populated territory in north of Kharkov and Sumy that could be taken.

2.Our billions and their billions are not the same. They get way more bang for their buck because our industry is parasitic and profit maximizing in nature. The corpos basically get blank checks and charge the US government whatever they like. Thats how we end up running low on supplies of 155mm shells even though we far outspend them, to the tune of almost 10:1.


3. They largely specialize in a few industries. Things which they previously bought from outside like chips, sophisticated drugs, medical machinery, high end engineering, etc they can turn and have been turning to India and China. They never really had competitive advantages in those anyways so no great loss.


4.GDP is a dumb metric to use here and this has been fleshed out already. A lot of stupid people keep repeating that because their economy is the size of Italy then that somehow makes them small and weak. The reality is, GDP can be easily manipulated because it's predicated on dollar denominated wealth, which can easily be inflated by printing trillions. What they do have is an endless abundance of natural resources that will always be in demand, which IMO is not true of the various fiat currencies we have today i.e. dollar, euro, whatever that continue to be debased.
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Dec 30 2023 03:08pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Dec 30 2023 11:56am)
"their manufacturing is fine", except their planes are barely functional because they can't manufacture specialty parts and are having to cannibalize their passenger planes for them.
"their manufacturing is fine", except the number of produced cars in Russia has dropped over 60% since the war started hasn't recovered
"their manufacturing is fine", except the already declining number of workers who can do the manufacturing has been further decreased by sending working age men into the meat grinder.

I know you have some weird boner for Russia, but sanctions have been pretty devastating to the Russian manufacturing base. Russia hasn't collapsed. That was never the intention. As I said from day one, the point of the sanctions is to make it not worth it to continue. Which they did, and then Putin kept going anyway compounding the losses.

You can make a car without "outside components" if you're fine driving a car without seat belts. Having to do that doesn't mean your manufacturing sector is strong.


Putin's grip on power was inextricably tied to the war the moment Russia invaded. If sanctions were geared towards forcing Russia to withdraw then the situation was fundamentally misunderstood.
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