Quote (Goomshill @ 18 Dec 2023 00:08)
Well there was a lot of back and forth reciprocal escalation by that point, after Obama's failed 'reset'. Obama's main jab against Putin was to try to bleed them in Syria to fight rebels, but it backfired on us in the most catastrophic way possible as Putin used his jiu jitsu by simply letting Syria fester instead of engaging it, unleashing a tidal wave of refugees on the EU and spawning ISIS and within a few years Obama was right back there handing Syria to Putin on a silver platter. Its the example I've pointed to so many times of how Obama went into office with a doctrine of 'be pragmatic instead of repeating Bush's mistaken interventions' only to fuck up everything anyway. I mean you can only be as pragmatic as you are competent. But yeah all that preceded the 2014 Maidan coup supported by the US, which Putin immediately followed by annexing Crimea and sending in his little green men and the slow burning civil war that followed.
I think the whole idea of 'appeasement vs aggression' is a false dichotomy. Its a matter of being aggressive when it works, backing off when it doesn't. If Joe Biden was actually willing to put up the display of military force and threats required to make Putin back down before the 2021 invasion, that would be a successful use of sabre rattling. But instead Joe Biden greenlit the invasion and told Putin we wouldn't stop him. Pretty stark contrast from Trump's bombastic apocalyptic threats of destruction to bring the DPRK to more peaceful relations. Put on a weak face and Putin will walk right over you. And when he did walk over Biden, Biden employed that stupid half-measure response that has sparked a bloody and disastrous conflict, another wave of refugees, locked up global food and energy and supply chains, put the iron curtain back in place and undermined our geopolitical hegemony of the petrodollar all at the same time. Again as I've said so many times.
I really don't think Syria in 2011/12 was primarily an attempt at bleeding Russia. To me, it seemed like the decision-makers in the West really got caught in the moment, really thought that the Arab world would (finally) shed its strongmen dictators and establish liberal democracies.
The DPRK doesn't seem more peaceful to me. They were constantly saber rattling before the summit with Trump, and kept saber rattling afterwards (and to this day). I think what Trump tried was worth a shot, but it clearly didn't change the trajectory NK was on.
Regarding Ukraine, I don't necessarily disagree with all you've said, but it strikes me as really odd how the failure and blame seems to lie exclusively with Obama/Biden in your eyes. You're making it sound as if Putin had no agency, as if he was a victim of the cirucmstances forced on him by the nefarious West who left him no choice than to unleash this war, bomb civilian infrastructure (like power and heat stations) and weaponize food exports.
This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Dec 17 2023 07:00pm