USA will not help Ukraine any longer.

There were celebrations in some places, which shouldn't be all too surprising given Poland's own involvement in the destruction of the western Ukrainian state and ongoing attempts at Polonization. But what was Russia supposed to do in that instance, allow Germany to have all of Poland? Go to war against Germany in 1939 and face the brunt of German violence? They occupied areas that had belonged to the Russian state a decade or two earlier and in doing so established an eastern front. Stalin miscalculated insofar as he did not anticipate a German attack so soon, but so did every other observer who did not think France would capitulate within 6 weeks.

Biden just gave them 200m, but that's like a big spit in the face to the amount of money needed for them to continue this war.

yeah its sad for the people who live in Ukraine and Zelenskji also, thats is also a sign from USA people thoughts. They are tired of keep support Ukraine and not performance of the wall between Mexico and the immigrantations.

$200MM is basically nothing compared to the 60+BN initial package.


I said this a few times in this thread. Supporting tens of billions going towards a war we have no business being in, particularly right around the corner from an election when most Americans are being bitten hard by inflation is not a good position. It's not a popular perspective and a lot of republicans are pointing at it. Most polling for us sending Ukraine aid has really plummeted since the beginning of the Summer. The counter-offensive, if successful may have served as a 'show', as in look at what our money did, therefore lets give more and finish the job. Instead it was largely a face-plant and instead of Ukraine gaining anything of value, fast forward to late October until now has actually been losing further. The ROI of another $60BN or $100BN or whatever other BN we further add is not there. The war needs to end. Give concessions, save Ukrainian lives. Let these people go back to work and build back their families and country instead of being forced to die.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Dec 12 2023 02:33pm

Only if Putin pinky swears he won't attack Ukraine after he replenishes his ammo reserves. Only thing left in Russia worth trusting.

Achieving a lasting peace is a bit more complicated than going "just give the Russians some concessions and it will all be over". Particularly at a time when Russia (presumably) thinks that their military position will improve the longer this goes on.

I've said it before and will happily reiterate: the best course of action for Ukraine is to wait until the next major Russian offensive has been stopped, probably next spring. Then and only then can they hope to achieve lasting peace with concessions which fall short of unconditional surrender.

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Regarding the aid packages: if this war has shown one thing, it's that it is extremely difficult for a land-based military to dislodge the enemy from a fortified position without proper air support. And since neither side has been able to gain anything even remotely resembling air superiority, it must - for now - be assumed that this war will continue to be characterized by a super pronounced defender's advantage. Russia has taken exactly one larger city over the past 18 months. This notion that they're now on the verge of steamrolling Ukraine seems absurd to me.

Hence, the amount of military aid that Ukraine needs to hold the current lines (minus the Avdiivka salient, which is probably untenable) should imho be far lower than $60bn. Someone in the Pentagon should calculate how much military aid Ukraine actually needs per year to sustain the current status quo. Then we can have a debate about whether this expense is worth it or not.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Dec 12 2023 03:10pm

Just give it a couple more months and you can review all the comments that were made before and gauge which are the ones that are sensible , pragmatic and realistic.

- Russia has tremendous more amount losses than Ukraine. Russia has lost 87% of troops it had prior to start of Ukraine. Second army in the world is no more.
- Ukraine military intelligence hacked Russian tax authorities. The hacks resulted in the complete destruction of the infrastructure of one of the main state bodies of Russia and revealed a multitude of tax data, which is now in the hands of Ukraine.

DOomed.


Of the 360,000 troops that entered Ukraine, including contract and conscript personnel, Russia has lost 315,000 on the battlefield, according to the assessment. 2,200 of 3,500 tanks have been lost, according to the assessment. 4,400 of 13,600 infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers have also been destroyed, a 32 percent loss rate.
“As of late November, Russia lost over a quarter of its pre-invasion stockpiles of ground forces equipment,” the assessment reads. “This has reduced the complexity and scale of Russian offensive operations, which have failed to make major gains in Ukraine since early 2022.”

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Dec 12 2023 03:40pm

They aren't steam rolling but are pushing on many key front towns. Going on the defensive is another prolongation of war with some expectation of attacking once their offensive stops. We've been over this a few times. At some point there has to be a sober take that the time for peace is now, not some just over the horizon "just a little longer" that just keeps getting extended endlessly. Small pieces of territory that may be gained/lost are secondary now IMO. It's the fact that there's hundreds of thousands of people stuck in cold holes with many of them dying daily. Why wait 3 more months, 6 more months, another year?