Not possible for Ukraine / Russia bro. The inhabitants do not have the Confucian or East Asian Philosophy that was etched into them to achieve that feat. Furthermore you need a strongman who is well versed in understanding the balance of power domestically and internationally to do that. He or She must be able to weid the western common law system like a magic wand.

The tight control of media, social media and all sorts of news will not be possible since it will curb Western influence.

well said.

Fascist Italy/Nazi Germany then

Zelensky reepresenting the necessary amoral fascism transition to impossible democracy ... Baby Jesus the insane bullshit people post here LOL

I see more nuance than this. Have you considered that building institutions is closely linked to overall prosperity of the country and its citizens whereby once demand for security, shelter and food are met - a demand for fair and just society arises. In my opinion this has nothing to do with being Confucian or East Asian.

You can see this unfolding with eg Saudis / UAE / Dubai whereby their legal system is slowly evolving to match those expectations as businesses that arr not linked to export of crude oil are born and people become wealthy and demand sheikhs to respect their rights and rule according to law (sharia law at that, but for the sake of institutions - this is good enough as long as it’s consistently implemented and rules of the “game” are known).

This post was edited by Malopox on Dec 4 2023 12:29am

I tend to agree with Hamster here. I mean, Russia / Ukraine are what they are. Ultimately the West is eyeing each country not as a partner but as a resource and there are no indications whatsoever to suggest the West will learn restraint in this regard. What I am inferring here is that: Ukraine / Russia are perceived weak and will be undermined at every turn, there is nothing to suggest equal partnership, it is an entity to be plundered. If the West considered Ukraine as a partner they would have declared war when Russia invaded. if the West considered Russia a partner they would have prevented this war or at the very least not scuppered last years negotiations, and there would be no talk of Nato.

This relates to up to this point.

It remains to be seen how the Ukraine or Russian government are going to be able to re-invent themselves, noting both are on very different courses right now. What is clear to me is that Ukraine looks to be getting rekt and there are no scenario's better then last years negotiated peace while what we are hearing out of Russia is that they are now returning to a cold war, military build up, position, i.e. "the enemy".

This post was edited by ferdia on Dec 4 2023 01:01am

While I agree with you for the most part - my argument was that of developing a society that functions without a single uniting authority figure as institutions have developed strong enough to play off interests of the elites behind the economical, political and military parts of the society to resolve their conflict of interests peacefully.

The fact that certain countries sees other strengthening societies as rising threats does not obviously help.

This post was edited by Malopox on Dec 4 2023 01:17am

I would rephrase: The fact that a certain country sees other strengthening societies as a rising threats, and takes covert and overt action to weaken their societies does not obviously help

Such is the world we live in unfortunately.

This post was edited by ferdia on Dec 4 2023 01:06am

Are there any realistic alternatives?

It is only natural for incumbent forces to feel threatened in the global politics as new powers emerge. Doctrine of realism describes that since there is no effective governance instrument to resolve conflicts between states - as states exist in the state of anarchy between each other on the global scale - the one who is able to muster the most power both economical, cultural and military, be that projected or inherent, is the one that prevails.

Well, look at China. They are literally "doing" "it". They are ignoring outside interference and blocking western influence, to a degree, and the sanctions being imposed on them is basically foreign aid at this point, as it is making them more self reliant (or, less reliant on the US) and look to other nations for partnerships. While this is occurring to a lesser degree in Russia, my impression is that Russia does not the cultural awareness / drive to innovate, grow and dominate. There are no positive indicators for Russia after Putin. He would need to reform the political establishment before he died and there is ZERO suggestion he has a mind to do this. What we are going to end up with is a very angry and hostile russia, for decades.

This post was edited by ferdia on Dec 4 2023 03:36am