Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 19:21)
You are free to watch his interview yourself - he is quite unambigious in this interview. The excerpt was indeed cut for brevity, but that doesnt change the underlying statement of Bennet.
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 19:21)
So we have march 2022, war takes place for a month.
Before the war Ukraine was free to join NATO, just as any country in the world.
It was not "Free to Join NATO". This is just not how realism in politics works. You cannot antagonize your powerful neighbors and expect to get away with it. This has been shown time and time again by NATO block and particularly Americans. Remember Panama invasion? Cuban missile crisis?
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 19:21)
Now Putin says: ok, we can have peace, but Ukraine has to promise you will not enter NATO.
Correct.
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 19:21)
So Ukraine has to make a concession, but what concession Russia offers compared to prewar? Absolutely none. One side deal.
What concession do you want Russians to make except removing their troops? The deal discussed in the article is quite fair, in my opinion. Ukraine was getting security guarantees from a.o. the West WITHOUT entering NATO. They would not be attacked by Russia, yet Russia would not feel threatened with Ballistic/Nuclear missiles potentially stationed at its borders.
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 19:21)
So its a kind of deal where you reward an aggresor, where Ukraine gives up part of their liberty, and Russia gets a reward for starting war.
You make a compromise that works for both sides. If Ukraine wants to be in EU they have to figure out how to stop wars, antisemitism and racist laws in their country. If anything letting Donbass and Crimea go will help that achieve that goal sooner. Russians do not mind Ukraine joining EU as outlined in the article.
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 19:21)
USA and UK are free to give their opinion to their Ukrainian friends on that.
Of course Israel was very interested in a case fire, because he needed to stay friendly with Russia because they cooperated in Syria. On the other hand some other countries were not so much interested in temporal peace with Russia at high cost.
So it seems that Israel and Europe interests were little different at that time.
You are conflating interests of Europe and US/UK. Those are not aligned. US/UK is not Europe. If anything a war that handicaps Europe is beneficial both for US and UK. See eg Nord Stream explosion which humiliated the Germans and they ate it.
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 20:13)
^malopox
About this:
There is absolutely no evidence that Russia or Putin wants to rebuild the USSR or conquer Europe
Its obvious that NATO isn't a military threat to Russia.
It is not obvious at all. NATO has waged numerous external non-defensive wars over the past two decades that left targets bombed out shells of their former self. Once NATO leaves - the country is left a poor wreck with no rebuild or infrastructure investments (Serbia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, etc).
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 20:13)
Do you really imagine peaceful people of western world attacking a strong enemy like Russia, that also has the biggest nukes Arsenal in the world?
Yes, the west has tried numerous times to attack Russia directly (world wars) or indirectly (propaganda, economic, hybrid warfare) and is doing this right now as we speak.
The West has so far initiated almost all wars of the past decades. Neither Asia nor Africa had any significant conflicts except Tigray war, but nobody gave a shit about those guys because they are brown. Sucks to be them, only a million killed in 2022 alone.
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 20:13)
All the west can do is to attack some weak small terrorist country like Iraq, and even that didnt really work out because people didnt want war.
You country is directly complicit in the biggest traged of 21st century so far. I wonder if ICJ will ever prosecute Aleksander Kwaśniewski for his part in numerous war crimes commited in Iraq.
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 20:13)
But its not NATO but European Union is a risk for Russia.
Russia has no quarrel with EU as economic block. As per link posted - Russians were willing to allow freedom of association / joining the EU for Ukraine. NATO expansionary wars are the problem. If not for those, Russians would have been sleepwalking into a conflict unaware of what might come if they allow NATO too close.
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 20:13)
A risk that Russian leaders need to eliminate.
Because ordinary Russians see, that people are rich and happy and free in EU, and start asking questions: "why Europeans live luxury life while my life is trash and Im poor and unimportant to my country leaders?"
Thats literally not what is happening. If anything the reverse is true. Europe has so far stagnated significantly and is entering a downturn. Russian economy is growing and has managed to withstand sanctions thrown at them. Russia GDP is top5 in the world by GDP in 2022 and is projected to grow as Germany GDP is projected to stagnate in 2023:
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 20:13)
And the only way they can stop it is via the military conquest.
Russia can train and send 1million soldiers to war, which is too strong to defend for any European democracy.
And that is why Europe has to take Russia seriously and stop playing stupid games. Play stupid games - win stupid prizes. Russia has to be an equal partner, not a country whos opinions can be ignored.
Quote (Ironfister @ 22 Nov 2023 20:13)
Of course our economy is much greater than theirs, hovewer if they focus their production on war equipment, and we focus on luxuries, it gives Russia an advantage.
We will need time to switch production to war equipment, we better start asap
Sure. Perhaps its better not to produce war equipment at all and focus on being good neighbours instead? What was the real reason Russia wasnt allowed to join NATO when they asked for it?