Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 4 2021 10:40am)
I have watched the entire video, and I saw plenty of violence by various groups of rioters. Asking if they attempted to "violently seize the powers of state" is a cheap deflection because this sets the bar for a damnable action impossibly high. A bunch of rednecks, overwhelmingly unorganized, undisciplined and driven by an emotional frenzy, never had the potential to seize the powers of the state, and you know it.
Let's take a step back. We aren't debating whether or not there was a violent riot, because we agree that there was. And we aren't debating whether or not it should be condemned as a criminal, lawless act in the nation's Capitol, because we agree that it should.
What we seemingly disagree on is whether or not this constitutes a rebellion, insurrection, or coup. That's not a deflection, it's the entire point. We can condemn a violent riot in the nation's Capitol without getting into histrionic comparisons to the Reichstag fire, 9/11, and Myanmar, all three of which are linked to the January 6th riots on a semi-regular basis by people in positions of authority who should absolutely know better.
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Why would they use their guns? Guns are a great equalizer and diminish the value of the numerical advantage that the rioters had. Moreover, all police officers present in and around the Capitol had guns while only a tiny fraction of the rioters, if any, were armed. From a tactical point of view, it would have been foolish for organized insurrectionists who really want to overthrow the government to pull their guns before the Capitol police does. Similarly, from a public opinion point of view, it would have been much better for these people's goals if the police had been the ones to open fire.
I think the bold is interesting, and I agree with it, but that is more geared towards eliciting public sympathy for their stated cause, which was to stop what they imagined to be a fraudulent election.
The Capitol police eventually did pull their guns, and Ashli Babbitt was shot dead. I think that it was an appropriate response to a stressful and dangerous situation, but we'll note that the situation did not escalate. What were the insurrectionists waiting for? If we're going to say that these insurrectionists intended to walk in, hold Congress hostage / spirit them away, all without ever intending to resort to lethal force, then yeah, I'm going to need to see the evidence first-hand.
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Agreed. Like I said before, it seems highly unlikely that there was a big conspiracy or premeditation to abduct lawmakers or attempt a genuine coup. However, even in the absence of premeditation, the likelihood was imho high that these first groups of protesters in the Capitol would have seized the opportunity to abduct or harm lawmakers if such an opportunity had presented itself - and like the footage I linked you proves, we got really close to such a situation.
While I agree with your criticism of the liberal MSM and their dirty tricks, I must still say that the footage from that 40 minute nytimes video was appalling. I largely turned down the volume to not get distracted by the obviously slanted commentary, but the raw footage is more than enough to paint the events of that day in a really bad light. That Democrats and their allies in the media try to portray these events as something even worse should not distract from the actual facts, and those are bad enough.
I'm not sure what they would have done, but I agree that it created a very dangerous situation with the potential to escalate. Do I think they would have abducted lawmakers? No. But if they had encountered someone like Mitt Romney I think his safety would have definitely been in danger.
I agree that it was appalling. It's not something that should have happened, or been allowed to happen. We should have a proper investigation into the day and hold those involved responsible. What I disagree with is attempts to present this as a Reichstag fire event. A riot and an attempted coup are two very different things, and it does everyone a disservice to pretend this is one when its the other.
Quote (thesnipa @ Aug 4 2021 10:20am)
you have an Asperger's like adherence to the appeal to authority when it suits you, and claim they're deepstate infiltrated corrupt organizations when it doesn't. if the FBI does arrest someone it will be fun to see if you push the throw them to the wolves button or the Biden pressured the FBI to find a scapegoat who is actually innocent button.
as to 2011 in WI, Walker made an unprecedented move to freeze the collective bargaining rights of only a single union, teachers, called it budgetarily necessary, and didnt touch the police, prison workers, or UAW unions. because they vote red, and teachers skew like 70% blue. they camped out with signs for a few weeks, a few jobless nutsos stayed longer, and it was almost entirely peaceful. both are protests, one is illegal, what a stupid semantic point you've tried to make....
and i see you're on the same idiotic point void made "bUt tHeY hAd gUnS tHeY dIdNt uSe". sure, a few people chose not to draw guns on a police force that would have returned fire on them, as any logical person would. when it was mace and fists cops just slowly got beaten back. shoot a gun and it turns into Kansas State in a flash. again, stupid point.
overall im just sad, not at the events of that day im over that. im sad i ever considered you anything but a middling intelligence entrenched ideologue. dont bother responding now or ever again to me on this topic or any other. that goes for void as well. you're now both in the same zone as fender and ill not engage with either of you ever again. i hope your life is decent as it can be for a group of people with such a startling gap between perceived and actual IQ.
You are getting basic facts on the day in question wrong, and yet it's the other people who don't understand what's going on. Gap between perceived and actual indeed.
All the best.
This post was edited by bogie160 on Aug 4 2021 11:01am