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Nov 19 2023 06:05pm
Quote (El1te @ Nov 19 2023 11:09pm)
They absolutely can

USA was in Vietnam for years, and that doesn't mean they lacked the ability to lay waste to the country, they didn't because it would have drastically escalated the cold war, much the same as if Russia decided to lay waste to Ukraine


Completely false statement. And pointless. Their aim was never to lay waste to Ukraine.
What was it again? Denazify Ukraine, regime change in Kiev?
They failed at those aims and so they just changed their stated objectives.
So it changes to hold the Donbass and eastern Ukraine.

If Russia did have enough conventional means to "lay waste to Ukraine" whatever that means in your opinion, they would have accomplished their aims in early 2022.

They failed to accomplish those aims. Moved the goalposts and them dug in to hold their position.

Other obvious reasons that disprove what you just stated are Russia having at least 2 rounds of massive mobilization.

Not to mention running to North Korea for ammunition.

If Russia did have that capacity, their objectives would have been complete.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Nov 19 2023 06:05pm
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Nov 20 2023 03:28am
Quote (Meanwhile @ 19 Nov 2023 16:38)
You are distording. Counteroffensive was largely slowed down and Ukrainians take care not wasting their resources.


I'm literally quoting your own posts. You wrote those things, not me. I'm just trying to make sense of it by asking you to clarify your own words.

Quote (Meanwhile @ 19 Nov 2023 16:38)

Russia has:

- A lack of non-commissioned officers
- Alcoholics commanders who push for 80% casualties
- Special sections to kill those who retreat
- "disposable prisonners" sent into complete meat waves - Wagner fest & all -
- Under-equipped troops
- Poor training and poor management of their wounded.
- Done alot of meatwave sacrifices (with "normal" soldiers, not prisonners) in order to please SexLord Putin

So yeah it's very certain a 3:1 or more, maybe 4:1. Imho claiming it's same ratio (1:1) is complete deceit.


All of these sound like some sex fantasies and are completely made up with no sources provided.
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Nov 20 2023 03:32am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Nov 2023 01:05)
Completely false statement. And pointless. Their aim was never to lay waste to Ukraine.
What was it again?


There is literally a wikipedia article what the stated goals on 24th of February 2022 were. There are 3 main goals. You can look them up and how they are defined.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Nov 2023 01:05)
Denazify Ukraine, regime change in Kiev?


Surprisingly - regime change was not one of the goals and still isn't

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Nov 2023 01:05)
They failed at those aims and so they just changed their stated objectives.
So it changes to hold the Donbass and eastern Ukraine.


They already achieved one of the stated goals by holding Donbass and Eastern Ukraine. Look up the initial goals.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Nov 2023 01:05)
If Russia did have enough conventional means to "lay waste to Ukraine" whatever that means in your opinion, they would have accomplished their aims in early 2022.


Laying waste was never a goal. Goal is to figure out a ceasefire to achieve 3 initial goals declared.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Nov 2023 01:05)
They failed to accomplish those aims. Moved the goalposts and them dug in to hold their position.


Again, you should read why Russians invaded and what the goals are. There is literally 1 hour speech by Putin if you fancy explaining in detail why and how they envision achieving the 3 goals stated.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Nov 2023 01:05)
Other obvious reasons that disprove what you just stated are Russia having at least 2 rounds of massive mobilization.


There was one mobilization round where they summoned c.a. 300k reserves.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Nov 2023 01:05)
Not to mention running to North Korea for ammunition.

If Russia did have that capacity, their objectives would have been complete.


Is that supposed to prove something? I'm not seeing it.

This post was edited by Malopox on Nov 20 2023 03:33am
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Nov 20 2023 03:42am
Quote (Malopox @ Nov 20 2023 09:32am)
There is literally a wikipedia article what the stated goals on 24th of February 2022 were. There are 3 main goals. You can look them up and how they are defined.



Surprisingly - regime change was not one of the goals and still isn't



They already achieved one of the stated goals by holding Donbass and Eastern Ukraine. Look up the initial goals.



Laying waste was never a goal. Goal is to figure out a ceasefire to achieve 3 initial goals declared.



Again, you should read why Russians invaded and what the goals are. There is literally 1 hour speech by Putin if you fancy explaining in detail why and how they envision achieving the 3 goals stated.



There was one mobilization round where they summoned c.a. 300k reserves.



Is that supposed to prove something? I'm not seeing it.


The goalposts changed after they failed to take out Zelensky and got their asses handed to them at hostomel.

Are you denying that?
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Nov 20 2023 03:44am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Nov 2023 10:42)
The goalposts changed after they failed to take out Zelensky and got their asses handed to them at hostomel.

Are you denying that?


What were the 3 initial goals, how were they defined and how did they change?

Please attempt to rationally reason without resorting to bigotry and racism for extra points.
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Nov 20 2023 03:57am
Quote (Malopox @ Nov 20 2023 09:32am)
There is literally a wikipedia article what the stated goals on 24th of February 2022 were. There are 3 main goals. You can look them up and how they are defined.



Surprisingly - regime change was not one of the goals and still isn't



They already achieved one of the stated goals by holding Donbass and Eastern Ukraine. Look up the initial goals.



Laying waste was never a goal. Goal is to figure out a ceasefire to achieve 3 initial goals declared.



Again, you should read why Russians invaded and what the goals are. There is literally 1 hour speech by Putin if you fancy explaining in detail why and how they envision achieving the 3 goals stated.



There was one mobilization round where they summoned c.a. 300k reserves.



Is that supposed to prove something? I'm not seeing it.


If you read carefully I never said their goal was to lay waste to Ukraine.
I refuted the point previously made that "Russia could reduce Ukraine to dust and ashes"

They clearly cannot do this, because if they can't complete a "limited special miltary operation" that was supposed to take days or weeks, after 2 years. Then it's a stretch to believe that thr Russian miltary is capabale of anything far exceeding that.

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Nov 20 2023 04:01am
Quote (Malopox @ Nov 20 2023 09:44am)
What were the 3 initial goals, how were they defined and how did they change?

Please attempt to rationally reason without resorting to bigotry and racism for extra points.


Read this article and let me know if it helps you better understand the topic at hand

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/putins-war-vanishing-goals#:~:text=Putin%27s%20Evolving%20Objectives&text=So%2C%20before%20the%20start%20of,of%20Luhansk%20and%20Donetsk%20oblasts.

Please reply without any over inflated sense of self righteousness or misplaced accusations of racism and bigotry.

Or, don't. I would be fully content with that also.
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Nov 20 2023 04:10am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Nov 2023 11:01)
Read this article and let me know if it helps you better understand the topic at hand

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/putins-war-vanishing-goals#:~:text=Putin%27s%20Evolving%20Objectives&text=So%2C%20before%20the%20start%20of,of%20Luhansk%20and%20Donetsk%20oblasts.

Please reply without any over inflated sense of self righteousness or misplaced accusations of racism and bigotry.

Or, don't. I would be fully content with that also.


I'm asking you a very simple question.

You've said that the goals have changed since the retreat of Russian forces from the vicinity of Kiev. Could you please enlighten the audience - what were the initial goals, how were they defined and how did they change?

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Nov 2023 10:42)
The goalposts changed after they failed to take out Zelensky and got their asses handed to them at hostomel.

Are you denying that?


To understand how to resolve this conflict (if that's your goal ofcourse)- one has to understand the stated and implicit motivation of all parties involved, including Russia, Ukraine, EU, US, NATO and whoever else you want to add who might have a stake in this conflict by now.


This post was edited by Malopox on Nov 20 2023 04:19am
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Nov 20 2023 04:27am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Nov 20 2023 06:01am)
Read this article and let me know if it helps you better understand the topic at hand

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/putins-war-vanishing-goals#:~:text=Putin%27s%20Evolving%20Objectives&text=So%2C%20before%20the%20start%20of,of%20Luhansk%20and%20Donetsk%20oblasts.

Please reply without any over inflated sense of self righteousness or misplaced accusations of racism and bigotry.

Or, don't. I would be fully content with that also.


Dodged the question and posted an article by a Ukrainian propagandist who works for a US government funded think tank :bonk:
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Nov 20 2023 04:38am
Quote (Malopox @ Nov 20 2023 10:10am)
I'm asking you a very simple question.

You've said that the goals have changed since the retreat of Russian forces from the vicinity of Kiev. Could you please enlighten the audience - what were the initial goals, how were they defined and how did they change?



To understand how to resolve this conflict (if that's your goal ofcourse)- one has to understand the stated and implicit motivation of all parties involved, including Russia, Ukraine, EU, US, NATO and whoever else you want to add who might have a stake in this conflict by now.


You can enlighten yourself quite easily. This is not even a matter for debate, which makes it quite comical that you chose this hill to die on.

Russias own stated war aims, changed. Multiple times in fact.

This is an indisputable fact for anyone capable of pragmatism or with any shred of objectivity.

If you don't fall into that category that is 100% a you problem.
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