Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 26 Sep 2023 15:49)

Well let's rationalize this. You believe they knew he was SS.
So what do they have to gain from bringing this dude. An opportunist round of applause and very minor boost of propaganda.
Versus what did they have to lose if people found out who he was.
A massive gaffe that embarrassed both nations and leaders. Giving propaganda potential to Russia that feed into their false de nazification rhetoric.
Also considering a simple google could have provided information so it's not as if the media would struggle to find out who he was.
Does that seem like a risk worth taking for so little gain?
I doubt it.

Doesn't it seem more likely that the dude fucked up?
Don't you think if they truly did a good job of vetting the guy it would clearly be poor judgement to bring him out?


Also it's not realistic to expect people to immediately make thay connection and walk out after literally seeing the dude for the first time. Especially if as you say, "they knew" he was SS, wouldn't they go to lengths to hide that fact?
So it would be even less obvious to people. Politicians are dumb ^^
I understand its convenient to say all those in attendance would be complicit but its a 100% a stretch.

Poor taste imo to suggest Russians have no choice but to torture people to death.

Also a mistake to link those murders that happened over the past 18 months to some political gaffe that happened this week, as if the gaffe was some kind of justification.

People always have a choice. Most often people will choose the path of least resistance.
Russians generally are choosing the path of least resistance in passively accepting Putins war; As opposed to resisting what has been a pointless loss of life for both sides.

Quote (Malopox @ Sep 26 2023 04:15pm)

I think the German investigators are in a massive pickle as what little evidence we have leads to Ukraine (and possibly Americans). Since this constitutes an act of war against Germany you can’t announce this unless you have 100% bulletproof evidence as this will change the course of this war (and could potentially spell the end of NATO if Americans are indeed involved).

Quote (Malopox @ Sep 26 2023 03:40pm)

Again. I think they knew exactly who that guy was and what he did, but just did not care as they thought that “Ukraine good, Russia bad” rhetoric is enough to erase his past. He did “thank him for his service” as a world war 2 vet fighting against the Russians and did not blink or flinch. He knew exactly what he was saying and who was in the room in front of him. I do not believe this was a simple error.

Its possible but I doubt that is what happened. I would accept anyone being outraged about the outcome, eg people applauded a former SS soldier, that happened its indisputable. So be outraged. The step further is being outraged because they believe it was intentional. That is an assumption.
The same way that people assumed the US destroyed NS2, and expected everyone else to accept it was factual.
Again I do realise its too perfect an opportunity of anyone critical of Zelensky/Ukraine to pass up; It is telling that people are not really motivated by the offending of the Jewish people but more motivated by their disagreement with Zelensky or Trudeau.
We obviously disagree on our assumptions of what happened there.

Im not sure why you are getting fixated on the whole torturing part. This is standard playbook in any war and some countries go at extreme lengths to make torture of POWs legal under their democratic laws organizing unofficial detention centers in allied or third party countries and holding non-combatants without trial for decades. Does that justify Russians or Ukrainians torturing POWs? No. Does this happen? Unfortunately yes.

I'm not fixated on torture. Although I will say the Russians deploy torture to at a vast scale. It is at a much larger scale and a way higher level of deaths of innocent civilians than even Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo.
They are blanket raping, torturing and murdering potentially thousands of civilians in a short period of time.
I was asking why you thought it was appropriate to ask whether Russians had any choice but to torture innocent civilians; Even linking it to the incident in Canada as if that was some kind of posthumous justification.
Maybe you were just aiming a jibe at Meanwhile but that was a particularly terrible post imo.

I do not understand the whole “removing the dictator” rhetoric. None of the democratic (or authoritarian for that reason) countries removed their leaders over illegal invasions or gross human rights violations so why should Russians? Do special rules apply to them? NATO can come and get him like they removed Gadaffi or Hussein if they are so fixated on removing a legitimate president of a sovereign country.

First point is not really applicable considering democratic countries have a peaceful transition of power, free elections, free press, freedom of speech and institutions like supreme courts than can keep its leaders in check. If enough people disapprove of any action it will be reflected in future elections. Which has been the case historically.
Russia arguably does have a peaceful transition of power, it just happens to transition from Putin back to Putin :D

Second point is obviously rhetorical considering Russia is a nuclear power. Although I do believe the Arab spring and deposition of Ghaddafi, Saddam and almost of Assad played a part in Putins mindset.
You said legitimate president referring to Putin? Was that a typo?
Either way that is exactly the issue. A majority of Russians support Putin. Either because its the path of least resistance, because they are frightened, because they are conditioned or because they actively benefit from Putin. People that passively exist are complicit also.

Why would NATO or any external actor want to remove Putin if Russians support him and won't oppose him themselves?

Its interesting to me that in the West liberty, freedom and democracy are highly valued principles. Even if a lot of people take those things for granted.
It appears that Russians do not value those ideals, or if it they do then they are willing to forgo them in exchange for increasing living standards under an authoritarian dictator.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Sep 26 2023 04:21pm)

Getting hung up on whether they knew or not doesn't really matter. Zelensky has a ton of people within his administration that openly display and revere people like Bandera & other collaborators, he has people from Pravi Sector and Azov serving within official leadership duties. To think he would of chaffed at this guy being honored is laughable.

Quote (DizzyBusiness @ 26 Sep 2023 18:10)

Lol
https://i.imgur.com/EA9qVVl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KTOen2h.jpg