Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Sep 23 2023 11:57am)

My point is the clear hypocrisy you have. Not that it wasn't obvious.

Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Sep 23 2023 04:02pm)

Okay, noted. Prox1m1ty thinks I'm a hypocrite. Anything new or just triggered into the same BS you say to everyone you disagree with? :lol:

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Sep 23 2023 04:37pm)

The US military goes to great lengths to avoid killing civilians and they still managed to kill thousands; You and others never let anyone forget it.
Russia doesn't even take great care not to strike their own troops on the battlefield and you somehow extrapolate they were at pains to avoid collateral damage?

You must be unable of objectivity or your not witnessing the same war as everybody else.




Anyone that actually believes the war has been a disaster for NATO is out of their minds.
Two new members with powerful domestic military industry, causing massive damage to NATOS perceived peer Russia at no risk to NATO soldiers.
Endless information on Russias capabilities or lack off.
The west is re tooling to replenish their stockpiles and go further than ever before on miltary spending.
In 5 years Poland alone could decimate the Russian army in an open conflict.

Yes they have sent weapons to Ukrsine and depleted stocks. So what? Those reserves will be replenished in an optimal way based on information Russia has forfeited in Ukraine.
NATO was founded to prevent against aggression from none other than Moscow, that's what those weapons were built for.

Being objective here the only possible L for NATO is that Ukraine is now in a frozen conflict that will prevent its accession barring some exceptional action.
Edit : I should add that there is a cost for this obviously. But the cost of appeasing Hitler in 1930's was far greater than opposing his will.
Are we expected to believe Putin if he claimed Ukraine was his only and final goal?
His own people can't even believe a word he says. The answer is simple and terse. No.

The price Russia has payed has more than covered any potential downside to NATO.

Peope won't like to hear that, least not Ukrainians who are themselves depleting Russia in an existential fight for their own survival.

But these are undisputable facts.

Quote (Djunior @ Sep 23 2023 04:47pm)

If you believe this somehow is a win for NATO then you're the one that's out of his mind.

- EU losing cheap Russian natural gas sending manufacturing industries and households in crisis. Total inflation bill (all of EU) running in the trillions of Euros and counting.
- Russia is NOT isolated, BRICKS countries refused to be bullied by US / EU and continue to trade with Russia and BRICKS is expanding.
- Russia absorbing everything NATO could throw at them depleting NATO's entire stockpile. Billions of Euros have to be spent to replenish stocks and on expanding production.
- Russia sending captured Western military tech to Iran and China, maybe even North Korea. Ouch

@bolded: Ukraine is being completely wrecked. Everything from their production facilities to critical infrastructure gets wrecked. A generation of young men is being sacrificed and people like you are celebrating pinprick actions in Belgorod or Crimea or tiny drones on Moscow as huge wins. The reality is that the war is taking place in Ukraine and the country is getting completely wrecked, 10 million (or more?) have fled, untold died and Russia is only ramping up instead of backing down.
Now that's some indisputable facts right there

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Sep 23 2023 01:09pm)

Its important to state that discussing civilian deaths purely as numbers is inhumane; However the intention is to provide a statistical profile, to be used in reaching a conclusion.
Also it is prudent to state these are estimates and not exact figures and should only be treated as evidence of a trend if one is apparent.

Quote

If we compare the effects of airstrikes during 19 months of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, with 20 years of US airstrikes during the Iraq war, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan and including 9,000 strikes against ISIS.
Below are the figures that can be extrapolated.

Ukraine Civilian Deaths from Russian strikes estimate, between 9300-16500 = 12,900 average
Over 19 months, average of 679 per month


Civilian Deaths from US airstrikes over 20 years estimate, between 22,679-48,308 = 35,494 average
Over 240 months, average of 148 per month.

Quote

If you open the wiki link below its possible to scroll through dozens of airstrikes that were either targeted at or otherwise hit civilian targets. Such as,

Bombing in Chernihiv
"On 3 March 2022, just after 12:00 (UTC+2), six unguided aerial bombs were filmed falling in a residential area in Chernihiv.[19] Analysis by Amnesty International found that (at least) eight bombs fell.[20] Two schools (No.18 and No.21) and 8 private houses in the intersection between the Viacheslava Chornovila and Kruhova streets (51.5001°N 31.2791°E) were destroyed, 7 more houses were also heavily damaged in the vicinity of the Biloruskyi Lane.[21] Local emergency services recorded 38 men and 9 women killed (47 in total) by the bombing and 18 people injured."

Dnipro Apartment block strike,
"On 14 January 2023 at about 3:30 p.m., a Russian Kh-22 type missile hit a nine-story residential building in Dnipro on the Naberezhna Peremohy St [uk], Sobornyi District in the right-bank part of the city, destroying one entrance and 236 apartments.[48] On 19 January the official casualty rate was stated as 46 people killed, 80 injured (12 in critical condition) and 11 people reported missing.[49] 14 children were reported among the injured, and 39 inhabitants were rescued.[50] The destruction left about 400 people homeless"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_civilians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
"The Russian military exposed the civilian population to unnecessary and disproportionate harm by using cluster munitions[7][8][9][10] and by firing other explosive weapons with wide-area effects such as bombs, missiles, heavy artillery shells and multiple launch rockets.[9] As of the beginning of July 2023, the attacks had resulted in the documented deaths of between 9,300[11] and 16,500 civilians. On 22 April 2022, the UN reported that 92.3% of civilian fatalities were attributable to the Russian armed forces.[13]"

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/sep/07/us-airstrikes-killed-at-least-22000-civilians-since-911-analysis-finds#:~:text=2%20years%20old-,US%20airstrikes%20killed%20at%20least,since%209%2F11%2C%20analysis%20finds&text=US%20drone%20and%20airstrikes%20have,civilian%20harm%20monitoring%20group%20Airwars.
"Encompassing attacks on Islamic State in Syria, the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as strikes against militant and terror groups in Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan and Libya, the US has said it had conducted at least 91,340 strikes in 20 years – including 9,000 against the Islamic State, the Airwars report said.
Based on that total, Airwars has calculated that “US actions likely killed at least 22,679 civilians, with that number potentially as high as 48,308”.

Further I'll add this reference to Russia airstrikes in Syria,
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/15/russian-airstrikes-in-syria-killed-2000-civilians-in-six-months

Further reading would be civilian deaths in the Chechen wars where Russia essentially leveled Grozny to the ground.

Anyway thats 5 minutes of collating readily available information, what information did you have supporting your statement of Russia going to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties? ^dizzybusiness
Genuine question because I would love to be proved wrong and imagine there is hope to assimilate Russia into a functioning global community some day. Currently that hope is threadbare at best in my view.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Sep 23 2023 01:25pm)

Much of what you have said is inaccurate or untrue, I'll try to reply to what is actually based in reality.
"EU losing cheap Russian natural gas"
Completely true. But as it stands the EU is entirely prepared for another winter without Russian pipeline gas, it did not freeze to death last winter as predicted and the effect of losing cheaper energy supply will be absorbed. Because there is no alternative. EU countries can't be seen to oppose Russia's illegal war and still purchase energy at pre war levels.
The effect is also mututal. Russia has lost its largest customer. It has had to replace that customer with selling energy at cut prices to China and India. It is also having to sell unrefined products in much larger quantities.
The revenues that Russia had from trade with the EU will not be replaced in the same volume and consistency for at least a decade. And that is if a second pipeline to China is agreed and built in that timeframe, it is not currently approved.

"Russia is NOT isolated, BRICKS countries refused to be bullied by US / EU and continue to trade with Russia and BRICKS is expanding."
This has no detrimental effect to NATO. NATO exists to oppose aggression, primarily from Russia. It will continue to do so.
Agreed that BRICS is expanding its membership. Albeit two members including Argentina and Belarus have flatlined and dependant economies, so it is essentially a mute point.
Also a well supported opinion on BRICS is that in theory it could be effective but in reality it is two potentially global powers in China and India with diverging interests and several lesser powers all with their own agendas that do not synergize to the point of being effective.
Does BRICS matter? Undoubtedly. Is it a detriment to NATO? No it isn't. Is BRICS expansion a result of the Ukraine war? Debatable at best. It was perhaps inevitable.

"Russia absorbing everything NATO could throw at them depleting NATO's entire stockpile"
First part is an interesting way word "Russia was stopped from achieving its military goal and expended at least 100,000 military personal in the process"
Its ironic you would say by pointing out the geopolitical truth that I am cheering for Ukraine's destruction. While you completely ignore the immense cost to Russia in celebrating a pyrrhic victory.
The second part about depleting NATO entire stockpile is not true so I will not respond.

"Russia sending captured Western military tech to Iran and China, maybe even North Korea. Ouch"
This is factored in to any military conflict. Do you actually believe that those countries did not acquire tech during 20 years of conflict in the middle east? Specifically in two countries bordering Iran.
You have to be more realistic here. This is not a detriment to NATO.

Also in general if you are able to diminish the cost to Russia as "pinprick actions", then I see no tangible benefit of debating someone so abject of objectivity.
I would ask if you could elaborate on Russia "ramping up" I and others have witnessed Russia become militarily stagnant since summer 2022 when they began digging in after a series of lost battles and embarrassing retreats. The significant exception to the rule being Russia's costly control of Bhakhmut.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 23 Sep 2023 18:09)

Its important to state that discussing civilian deaths purely as numbers is inhumane; However the intention is to provide a statistical profile, to be used in reaching a conclusion.
Also it is prudent to state these are estimates and not exact figures and should only be treated as evidence of a trend if one is apparent.

If we compare the effects of airstrikes during 19 months of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, with 20 years of US airstrikes during the Iraq war, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan and including 9,000 strikes against ISIS.
Below are the figures that can be extrapolated.

Ukraine Civilian Deaths from Russian strikes estimate, between tel:9300-165009300-16500[/URL] = 12,900 average
Over 19 months, average of 679 per month

Civilian Deaths from US airstrikes over 20 years estimate, between 22,679-48,308 = 35,494 average
Over 240 months, average of 148 per month.

If you open the wiki link below its possible to scroll through dozens of airstrikes that were either targeted at or otherwise hit civilian targets. Such as,

Bombing in Chernihiv
"On 3 March 2022, just after 12:00 (UTC+2), six unguided aerial bombs were filmed falling in a residential area in Chernihiv.[19] Analysis by Amnesty International found that (at least) eight bombs fell.[20] Two schools (No.18 and No.21) and 8 private houses in the intersection between the Viacheslava Chornovila and Kruhova streets (51.5001°N 31.2791°E) were destroyed, 7 more houses were also heavily damaged in the vicinity of the Biloruskyi Lane.[21] Local emergency services recorded 38 men and 9 women killed (47 in total) by the bombing and 18 people injured."

Dnipro Apartment block strike,
"On 14 January 2023 at about 3:30 p.m., a Russian Kh-22 type missile hit a nine-story residential building in Dnipro on the Naberezhna Peremohy St [uk], Sobornyi District in the right-bank part of the city, destroying one entrance and 236 apartments.[48] On 19 January the official casualty rate was stated as 46 people killed, 80 injured (12 in critical condition) and 11 people reported missing.[49] 14 children were reported among the injured, and 39 inhabitants were rescued.[50] The destruction left about 400 people homeless"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_civilians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
"The Russian military exposed the civilian population to unnecessary and disproportionate harm by using cluster munitions[7][8][9][10] and by firing other explosive weapons with wide-area effects such as bombs, missiles, heavy artillery shells and multiple launch rockets.[9] As of the beginning of July 2023, the attacks had resulted in the documented deaths of between 9,300[11] and 16,500 civilians. On 22 April 2022, the UN reported that 92.3% of civilian fatalities were attributable to the Russian armed forces.[13]"

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/sep/07/us-airstrikes-killed-at-least-22000-civilians-since-911-analysis-finds#:~:text=2%20years%20old-,US%20airstrikes%20killed%20at%20least,since%209%2F11%2C%20analysis%20finds&text=US%20drone%20and%20airstrikes%20have,civilian%20harm%20monitoring%20group%20Airwars.
"Encompassing attacks on Islamic State in Syria, the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as strikes against militant and terror groups in Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan and Libya, the US has said it had conducted at least 91,340 strikes in 20 years – including 9,000 against the Islamic State, the Airwars report said.
Based on that total, Airwars has calculated that “US actions likely killed at least 22,679 civilians, with that number potentially as high as 48,308”.

Further I'll add this reference to Russia airstrikes in Syria,
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/15/russian-airstrikes-in-syria-killed-2000-civilians-in-six-months

Further reading would be civilian deaths in the Chechen wars where Russia essentially leveled Grozny to the ground.

Anyway thats 5 minutes of collating readily available information, what information did you have supporting your statement of Russia going to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties? ^dizzybusiness
Genuine question because I would love to be proved wrong and imagine there is hope to assimilate Russia into a functioning global community some day. Currently that hope is threadbare at best in my view.

Quote

The IBC project, reported that by the end of the major combat phase of the invasion period up to April 30, 2003, 7,419 civilians had been killed, primarily by U.S. air-and-ground forces

Quote ( https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi )

There have been between 280,771-315,190 Iraqi civilians killed by direct violence since the U.S. invasion.

The actual number of civilians killed by direct and indirect war violence is unknown but likely much higher.

Life-threatening damage to Iraqi health care and other infrastructure has not been repaired: civilians are still dying in significant numbers.

Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Sep 23 2023 05:41pm)

This sounds like chat GPT lol



The US crushed the Iraqi military in days and then occupied the country for 20 years, most of the civilian deaths as a direct cause of the US military happened within the first few years so averaging the deaths per month like this is pretty silly and irrelevant. Did you write this out yourself or did you copy and paste it from somewhere? I'm guessing the latter

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1179795/


Yeah sorry I'm not gonna dig through all this, Syria, Grozny? Just throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks? Lol

Quote (Malopox @ Sep 23 2023 05:44pm)

US murdered more than 7000 civilians in the first month of Iraq invasion. This is confirmed an undisputed. What are you trying to do show us here? Millions more died of various causes as a result of this illegal invasion.





NATO tactics and civilian casualty rate just in Iraq war was uncomparably more gruesome and that’s without trying to bring in stuff like excess deaths, Fallujah, creation of ISIS and AlQaeda and so on.

Yes Russia is not exactly making friends right now with their invasions, but it’s just incomparable how barbaric NATO invasions were.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Sep 23 2023 02:20pm)

What part of your post included evidence to backup your aforementioned statement?