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Sep 15 2023 05:38pm
Quote (El1te @ 15 Sep 2023 23:40)
I put them in the same bag since the EU is a vassal of the USA and completely under their thumb. Whatever the USA does, they do, they have no other choice.

Strange. If my memory serves me right, the US tried to assemble a large coalition in 2003, to conduct the largest military operation of the past 50 years - but Canada, France and Germany, 3 of their oldest and most important allies, told them to fuck off.
Even stranger that these vassals outright refused to give the US allegiance, yet the reaction from Washington wasn't to send tanks across the Canadian border or to launch missiles on Paris and Berlin. The evil empire has truly gone soft, hasn't it?
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Sep 15 2023 06:51pm
Quote (fender @ Sep 16 2023 12:39am)
honest question: what do YOU think should be done?

simply stop any western military aid to ukraine and let russia just roll over them, murder ukraine's leadership, ethnically cleanse the country like crimea, and call it a day? you think that's the better alternative? let them take transnistria and moldova too, and try in georgia again?

i mean, it's pretty obvious that's what you'd prefer, but maybe you have some other suggestion...


how is it possible to end a conflict? let me think for a second........almost got it.......ok here we go

its called peace treaty and that requires compromise, ever heard of that stuff? :rofl:

do these terms exist in your vocabulary, goebbels?

of course the nazis arent happy until they march through moscow, but thats not happening

ukraine getting their pre 2014 territory is extremely unlikely to say the least so maybe you would want to get a deal before you have no soldiers left

i am sure you remember what happened when goebbels and the boys fought to the last man? thats when the steamrolling begins

with all problems resolved ukraine could fully join the western block and lock in the new borders permanently

but thats clearly not the plan, ukraine is just a sacrificial lamb and the masters in washington dont give three shits as long as it damages russia somehow

now you can unleash your copy paste REEEEEE nonsense that you have posted a thousand times
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Sep 15 2023 08:37pm
Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ 16 Sep 2023 02:51)
how is it possible to end a conflict? let me think for a second........almost got it.......ok here we go

its called peace treaty and that requires compromise, ever heard of that stuff? :rofl:

do these terms exist in your vocabulary, goebbels?

of course the nazis arent happy until they march through moscow, but thats not happening

ukraine getting their pre 2014 territory is extremely unlikely to say the least so maybe you would want to get a deal before you have no soldiers left

i am sure you remember what happened when goebbels and the boys fought to the last man? thats when the steamrolling begins

with all problems resolved ukraine could fully join the western block and lock in the new borders permanently

but thats clearly not the plan, ukraine is just a sacrificial lamb and the masters in washington dont give three shits as long as it damages russia somehow

now you can unleash your copy paste REEEEEE nonsense that you have posted a thousand times


"the nazis" (aka the troops that repeatedly invade their neighbours and have the higher percentage of neo-nazis within their ranks) will not be happy until they march through kyiv. it's amazing to me, that you completely turned around who the aggressors are in your head.

but ok, let's just ignore the propaganda, and try to have a serious discussion for once: what would be a fair "compromise" to you, how much territory should the aggressors be awarded with in your opinion, and do you think that "deal" would realistically be achieved by the west unilaterally halting their military aid? do you genuinely believe that would bring russia to the negotiating table?

you continue to act like it's "the west" that keeps the war going, while in reality it's the russians that keep up their military actions in ukraine. it's moscow that has no interest in stopping the fighting. the overwhelming majority of ukrainians and the west would love nothing more than peace, it's russia that won't stop attacking.
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Sep 15 2023 09:42pm
Quote (fender @ Sep 15 2023 10:37pm)
"the nazis" (aka the troops that repeatedly invade their neighbours and have the higher percentage of neo-nazis within their ranks) will not be happy until they march through kyiv. it's amazing to me, that you completely turned around who the aggressors are in your head.

but ok, let's just ignore the propaganda, and try to have a serious discussion for once: what would be a fair "compromise" to you, how much territory should the aggressors be awarded with in your opinion, and do you think that "deal" would realistically be achieved by the west unilaterally halting their military aid? do you genuinely believe that would bring russia to the negotiating table?

you continue to act like it's "the west" that keeps the war going, while in reality it's the russians that keep up their military actions in ukraine. it's moscow that has no interest in stopping the fighting. the overwhelming majority of ukrainians and the west would love nothing more than peace, it's russia that won't stop attacking.


What would peace look like, in your terms? What should happen to Russian-speaking Donbass? What should happen to Russian Crimea?
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Sep 15 2023 10:21pm
Quote (bogie160 @ 16 Sep 2023 05:42)
What would peace look like, in your terms? What should happen to Russian-speaking Donbass? What should happen to Russian Crimea?


cute, kremlin-approved framing.

https://sites.utu.fi/bre/crimea-crimean-tatars-and-the-russian-invasion-of-ukraine/

a fair peace would see ukraine regaining all of its illegally occupied territory. as a compromise, it would promise to hold internationally surveilled, fair referendums once those regions are rebuilt and crimea's russification process is reversed, in order to determine their future. should there be a genuine desire by the majority of their inhabitants to become "independent" or russian provinces straight away, ukraine commits to honoring that and international borders will be redrawn peacefully.
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Sep 15 2023 11:33pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 15 2023 08:38pm)
Strange. If my memory serves me right, the US tried to assemble a large coalition in 2003, to conduct the largest military operation of the past 50 years - but Canada, France and Germany, 3 of their oldest and most important allies, told them to fuck off.
Even stranger that these vassals outright refused to give the US allegiance, yet the reaction from Washington wasn't to send tanks across the Canadian border or to launch missiles on Paris and Berlin. The evil empire has truly gone soft, hasn't it?


Both Germany and Canada supported the war though, they didn't have boots on the ground but according to the US Ambassador to Canada, we provided more help than most of the 46 member coalition

Quote
shortly after the US invasion began, the ambassador openly praised Canada’s contribution to the war effort (even though he groused over the Chrétien government’s public caginess). At a meeting of the Economic Club of Toronto on March 25, 2003, Cellucci stated that Canada’s military support for the invasion exceeded that of most coalition members: “Ironically, the Canadian naval vessels, aircraft and personnel in the Persian Gulf… will provide more support indirectly to this war in Iraq than most of the 46 countries that are fully supporting our efforts there.”


https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/debunking-the-myth-of-canadas-non-involvement-in-the-iraq-war

Germany also participated in similar ways by not putting boots on the ground but supporting the war indirectly. Not exactly a "fuck off".

https://wri-irg.org/en/news/2006/pflueger-en.htm

France is less of a vassal state than say the UK or Germany, but they can still be controlled to a large degree via trade and political pressure from their neighbours, they did oppose the Iraq war but that did have consequences. This is a excerpt from an article which talks about how the US started to frame France as an enemy due to its opposition to Iraq

Quote
Relations between the United States and France in 1797-98 and 2003-2004 followed a path that was the exact opposite of the course described above. In both instances, official statements opened the way to media campaigns that resulted in the creation of an enemy image of France that was accepted by a significant portion of the American public.3

During both crises, the “elite statements” that signaled that France had become an antagonist in the eyes of American officials came from the highest levels of government: in 1798, President Adams repeatedly issued calls to arms against the French in front of town assemblies, societies and militia companies (DeConde 1966: 81), while Representatives in Congress advocated “open and deadly war with France” (Bowman 1974: 331). In 2003, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld’s reproach that “France has been a problem” (Rumsfeld 2003), Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice’s willingness to “punish France”, and Colin Powell’s assertion that France would be made to suffer for its opposition to the war (Knowlton 2003a) prompted editorialist Thomas Friedman to write in The New York Times: “It’s time we Americans came to terms with something: France is not just our annoying ally. It is not just our jealous rival. France is becoming our enemy” (Friedman 2003). These lines sum up the spirit of a media campaign whose effects paralleled the damaging work carried out by the press in the context of the 1790s Quasi-War.

In 2003 as in 1798, the media accomplished what the polished language of international diplomacy could not: it spread deprecatory images of France and the French in order to rouse public opinion against a nation that came to incarnate everything un-patriotic and un-American. In both cases, the media campaigns were carefully orchestrated. In 1797-8, three quarters of the press supported the administration’s stance against France (DeConde 1966: 79). Federalist newspapers such as The Boston Gazette and New York Commercial Advertiser became fora for all those who sought to spread rumors of an impending invasion of the United States by French troops, calling for military action against France. Alexander Hamilton himself took to pen under the pseudonym “Titus Manlius” to publish a series of articles titled “The stand”. “Like the prophet of Mecca”, he wrote in one of these columns, “the tyrants of France press forward with the alcoran of their faith in one hand, and the sword in the other” (Hamilton 1798). The association between Frenchmen and Muslims, a topos that would be widely used in 2003 as well, can be seen as the justification of a crusade-like enterprise.

The Washington Times, which is owned by Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Movement, is well-known for it (...)
11In 2003, leaks from alleged “anonymous administration officials” (Ireland 2003) provided the source of articles accusing France of selling military equipment to Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. As noted by political scientist Justin Vaïsse, the breadth and depth of the disinformation campaign against France was striking: anti-French articles did not only appear in controversial papers such as The Washington Times and New York Post,4 but also in prestigious and widely read outlets such as The New York Times, The Washington Post, and Newsweek (Vaïsse 2003b).

https://journals.openedition.org/angles/408

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Sep 15 2023 11:49pm
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ 16 Sep 2023 13:33)
Both Germany and Canada supported the war though, they didn't have boots on the ground but according to the US Ambassador to Canada, we provided more help than most of the 46 member coalition



https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/debunking-the-myth-of-canadas-non-involvement-in-the-iraq-war

Germany also participated in similar ways by not putting boots on the ground but supporting the war indirectly. Not exactly a "fuck off".

https://wri-irg.org/en/news/2006/pflueger-en.htm

France is less of a vassal state than say the UK or Germany, but they can still be controlled to a large degree via trade and political pressure from their neighbours, they did oppose the Iraq war but that did have consequences. This is a excerpt from an article which talks about how the US started to frame France as an enemy due to its opposition to Iraq


https://journals.openedition.org/angles/408


Well.....the French caved in and rejoin NATO during Sarkozy time in full participation. So no more independent thinking.

But most EU countries gonna go right wing soon.
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Sep 16 2023 12:27am
Quote (Hamsterbaby @ Sep 16 2023 02:49am)
Well.....the French caved in and rejoin NATO during Sarkozy time in full participation. So no more independent thinking.

But most EU countries gonna go right wing soon.


Yes I think they have come more into the US fold since then, probably in large part due to pressure put on them by the US due to their refusal to join the coalition

I still view them as more independent actors than some other European countries, Macron has attempted to be more diplomatic with both Russia and China IMO.
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Sep 16 2023 12:54am
Quote (fender @ 16 Sep 2023 06:21)
cute, kremlin-approved framing.

https://sites.utu.fi/bre/crimea-crimean-tatars-and-the-russian-invasion-of-ukraine/

a fair peace would see ukraine regaining all of its illegally occupied territory. as a compromise, it would promise to hold internationally surveilled, fair referendums once those regions are rebuilt and crimea's russification process is reversed, in order to determine their future. should there be a genuine desire by the majority of their inhabitants to become "independent" or russian provinces straight away, ukraine commits to honoring that and international borders will be redrawn peacefully.


This has already happened several times. Examplef for Crimea.

In 1991 Crimea overwhelmingly voted to be autonomous.
In 1992 Crimea votes for constitution independent of Ukraine
In 1995 they voted again, and then again, and then again trying to get independence and autonomy.

None of this was honored and Kuchma back in the days reneged on the promise for more autonomy and crushed dissent eventually.

You could argue that 2014 referendum was framed and not conducted according to international standards, but I doubt results would have been drastically different even if conducted the way West wanted - whatever that way might be.

I hate quoting Wikipedia as it can be vandalized, but here it is anyway:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Crimean_constitution

If you want to follow the will of the people - you should let them decide their own fate - and they already did so several times consistently. They were “given” to Ukraine in 1952 against their will and having no say in it.

This post was edited by Malopox on Sep 16 2023 01:04am
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Sep 16 2023 02:24am
This level of dishonesty lol. Anyway...

Barbarians terrorists will be at it again ?

This time it could be a bit different, considering Ukrainians are developping alot of drones themselves, including long range ones.



This post was edited by Meanwhile on Sep 16 2023 02:31am
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