Lol. OK. I'm sure you are right.

Good chat

so if you agree that Russia shouldnt have invaded and should pull out , what are we arguing about?

The economic sanctions were a mistake. And just for the record: I was against them since the get go.

There is, however, a difference between my position of "the economic sanctions do hurt Russia, but not to a sufficient degree to justify the pain they inflict on ourselves" and your exaggerated propaganda position of "the Western sanctions are the greatest failure in the history of mankind, they barely tickle Russia while the West is on course toward economic collapse without cheap Russian energy".

Furthermore, it can't be stressed often enough that it was Russia which shut down the gas pipelines. This happened before the NS pipelines got blown up, and it happened at a time when natural gas was not subject to sanctions yet; Germany (and other European countries) were still happily receiving the Russian gas at the time.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Sep 14 2023 03:42pm

- The distance from Ukraine to Moscow is about the same as the distance from the Estonian border to Moscow. Estonia has been a NATO member since 2004.
- Russia already controled Crimea/Sevastopol and the ethnic Russian regions of Ukraine before Feburary 2022.

So these points don't give a valid reason why Russia had to invade the rest of Ukraine at all, nor why it had to happen in Feb 22. The previous status quo already served their (purported) interests: control Crimea/Sevastopol, create a frozen conflict in the Donbass which indefinitely prevents Ukraine from joining NATO or the EU.

You are the one saying it, hopefully most of people think differently. Most of the sanctions is not avoided.

Very wise words

There really isn't any alternative to cutting imports from Russia; As much as possible, and for as long as Russia uses trade capital to wage wars of aggression.



Well put.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Sep 14 2023 04:14pm

Russia therefore failed to accumulate as much Western material as before the war, while its income from fossil fuels diminished.
The Russian population also pays the high price following the fall of the ruble and the rise in the price of imports.

It is not brilliant, like this german minister said: it's not possoble to stop a war with sanctions... But the effect is real and the most import: the sooner the better.
If the Russian economy has so far not collapsed, it is weakened.

Poroshenko is very stylish