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Jul 4 2021 06:36pm
Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ Jul 4 2021 07:27pm)
it also works the other way, there are scientists who say that the vaccines will push mutations

we have to live with the virus, period


Except there aren't scientists who say that vaccines will push mutations.

Please link me to a single scientist who has a relavent expertise who says vaccines push mutations.
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Jul 4 2021 06:37pm
Death rate: 0.01% after vaccine
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Jul 4 2021 06:39pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 4 2021 07:35pm)
Perma-restrictions are just not feasible in developing countries, so it was inevitable that they were going to have huge outbreaks sooner or later as long as their population doesnt have a high enough vaccination rate - and that was impossible to achieve by April 2021 (when Delta took over in India). Even if the first world countries and their pharma companies had shared their vaccine patents and technology and ramped up production capabilities starting last summer, we still wouldnt have gotten the world population to more than a 20ish percent full vaccination rate.


The more contagious variants we've seen emerge so far cannot realistically be blamed on the covid measures (or lack thereof) in first world places governed by conservatives. They were inevitable as soon as the initial containment had failed and the virus had spread to other countries and continents. Which, according to more recent analysis, was at some point in late 2019...


Bolsanaro and Modi certainly did push shitty policies that increased infectivity and fall outside of first world conservatives.

Additionally, if Bill Gates hadn't successfully lobbied Oxford to patent and sell their vaccine we would have seen vaccine production absolutely explode worldwide and seen a much higher vaccination rate. Their initial plan was to release the patent to the world and they were stopped from doing so under the promise that whoever they gave the patent to would make it available. Really shitty and mostly a result of Bill Gate's actions. He is personally responsible for at least hundreds of millions of extra infections.

I think there's a lot more factors at play from generally conservative forces than you are realizing.
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Jul 4 2021 06:40pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 5 Jul 2021 02:36)
Except there aren't scientists who say that vaccines will push mutations.

Please link me to a single scientist who has a relavent expertise who says vaccines push mutations.


https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants

Plenty more who rang the alarm bell in the UK when they were debating whether to stretch the vaccination interval for AstraZeneca to 12 weeks back in January/February. Some scientists were arguing that this longer interval would allow more people to get the protection from the first dose in the near-term future, while numerous other scientists warned that a large pool of semi-but-not-fully immune persons would be a breeding ground for more aggressive variants.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jul 4 2021 06:40pm
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Jul 4 2021 06:49pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 5 Jul 2021 02:39)
Bolsanaro and Modi certainly did push shitty policies that increased infectivity and fall outside of first world conservatives.

Then it's not a contradiction to my point that the emergence of the more contagious variants cannot be blamed on conservative-run first world places.
Also, the left-leaning governments in countries like Bolivia, Argentina, Mexico, Spain, France, Sweden, Ireland, Portugal or South Africa didn't really do better than their conservative counterparts in Germany, Greece, Israel, Japan, Austria, Egypt and so on.

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Additionally, if Bill Gates hadn't successfully lobbied Oxford to patent and sell their vaccine we would have seen vaccine production absolutely explode worldwide and seen a much higher vaccination rate. Their initial plan was to release the patent to the world and they were stopped from doing so under the promise that whoever they gave the patent to would make it available. Really shitty and mostly a result of Bill Gate's actions. He is personally responsible for at least hundreds of millions of extra infections.


The AstraZeneca vaccine is second rate anyway. Unfortunately, the superior mRNA vaccines are technologically challenging and difficult to handle. And once again: even this worldwide explosion of AZ production would not have come in time to stop Delta, which took over in April.
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Jul 4 2021 06:55pm
Bolsonaro was right, just look at the yearly GDP change
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Jul 4 2021 06:59pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 4 2021 07:40pm)
https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants

Plenty more who rang the alarm bell in the UK when they were debating whether to stretch the vaccination interval for AstraZeneca to 12 weeks back in January/February. Some scientists were arguing that this longer interval would allow more people to get the protection from the first dose in the near-term future, while numerous other scientists warned that a large pool of semi-but-not-fully immune persons would be a breeding ground for more aggressive variants.


"PAUL BIENIASZ: They might serve as sort of a breeding ground for the virus to acquire new mutations.

HARRIS: That's because the virus is always mutating. And if one happens to produce a mutation that makes it less vulnerable to the vaccine, that virus could simply multiply in a vaccinated individual. But even if that happens, that's only one step in the process."

In other words, they don't push immune variants, they act as a replication point for immune resistant variants, which would happen regardless of how the immunity was acquired.
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Jul 4 2021 07:05pm
Sometimes viruses are leading to a complete exctincion.
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Jul 4 2021 07:30pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 5 Jul 2021 02:59)
"PAUL BIENIASZ: They might serve as sort of a breeding ground for the virus to acquire new mutations.

HARRIS: That's because the virus is always mutating. And if one happens to produce a mutation that makes it less vulnerable to the vaccine, that virus could simply multiply in a vaccinated individual. But even if that happens, that's only one step in the process."

In other words, they don't push immune variants, they act as a replication point for immune resistant variants, which would happen regardless of how the immunity was acquired.


That's not what Paul Bieniasz and other virologists were arguing.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/could-too-much-time-between-doses-drive-coronavirus-outwit-vaccines

Quote
Paul Bieniasz didn’t mince words in a sarcastic New Year’s Day statement he tweeted. If he wanted to create a new, vaccine-resisting version of the pandemic coronavirus, the Rockefeller University virologist wrote, “having developed a remarkable two-dose vaccine, [I’d] … ADMINISTER IT TO MILLIONS OF PEOPLE – BUT DELAY THE SECOND DOSE. … If we let immunity wane for a little while, say 4 to 12 weeks, we just might hit the sweet spot”—and create a virus that could foil the vaccine.

Bieniasz was reacting to the United Kingdom’s 30 December 2020 decision to allow up to 12 weeks between doses of two authorized vaccines, rather than the 3 or 4 weeks tested in the vaccines’ clinical trials. Desperate to tame a massive surge in cases and alarmed by the spread of a new, more contagious variant of the virus, U.K. vaccine experts were aiming to quickly get at least some protection into the arms of as many people as possible.


Quote
Bieniasz and other virologists worry that extending the dosing interval might result in millions of people with only partial immunity as they wait for their second dose—a potential breeding ground for vaccine-resistant mutations. “If we end up with everybody just getting one dose with no doses available for a timely boost, that would in my opinion, be a problem,” says Florian Krammer, a virologist at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai.


Quote
Virologists worry lengthening the dosing interval from, say, 3 weeks to 3 months, could speed the emergence of such mutants by creating a pool of subimmune people who have enough antibodies to slow the virus and avoid developing symptoms—but not enough to wipe it out.


Quote
Some data support the possibility that partial immunity could spawn new variants. For example, a case study published recently in The New England Journal of Medicine reported how, in a prolonged, ultimately fatal case of SARS-CoV-2 in an immunocompromised man, the virus kept mutating at a rapid rate compared with virus circulating in the general population.


At the end of the day, the voices in the expert community who preferred a more rapid rollout of the vaccines, even if it meant stretching the interval between the first and second dose, prevailed over those arguing that this would push new mutations - but the latter group did absolutely exist, and by the looks of it, they were not just a tiny fringe group.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jul 4 2021 07:32pm
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Jul 4 2021 07:43pm
Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ Jul 4 2021 05:27pm)
it also works the other way, there are scientists who say that the vaccines will push mutations

we have to live with the virus, period



Wut? How can vaccines create mutation?
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