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Aug 20 2023 07:31pm
Quote (ferdia @ 20 Aug 2023 03:25)
sure, https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/dictatorship-countries

Accept that while reading the above it is "politically correct", notwithstanding you can probably see some issues with it.


Ok so America considers a monarchy a dictatorship. I strongly disagree. *shrug*
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Aug 21 2023 03:29am


Ukrainians "who don't want to live with us will get shot"
https://youtu.be/6ak26eU82Zs

Invading Taiwan? Not sure. But how about Russia ? ^_^
https://youtu.be/ogt-WgEndsc

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Aug 21 2023 03:49am
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Aug 21 2023 04:01am
Quote (Goomshill @ Aug 21 2023 12:21am)
Wikipedia has a raging neoliberal bias, and before Ukraine became their pet proxy war, they were happy to call out the endemic Nazism in Ukraine, while after the war set in the page was sanitized and filled with talking points to diminish and excuse that Nazism. There's more information about "nazism in russia" in the page about them in Ukraine. Its just more of that revisionism and narrative sculpting


yes, understood, ty for clarification.

Quote (Meanwhile @ Aug 21 2023 02:00am)
Netherlands and Denmark to donate up to 61 F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine.

help me i can't see beyond my nose :bonk:


Also, thats alot of F16's. If this is just the start, who knows where we are going to end up.

Do you know how many F16's have been confirmed to date ?

This post was edited by ferdia on Aug 21 2023 04:06am
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Aug 21 2023 04:21am
https://bne.eu/ukraine-war-fatigue-is-growing-288892/

Quite a thorough analysis by BNE (ex Daily Telegraph / Euromoney).

Quote
Fatigue with the war in Ukraine is growing louder as the war in Ukraine drags on with no end in sight.

Western elites are still committed to supporting Kyiv until the bitter end. Nato Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said on August 18 that Nato will support Ukraine, “until it wins.” European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, a Russia hawk, has repeatedly said that the EU will do “whatever it takes” to support Ukraine and has been instrumental in pushing through numerous large financial support packages. And US President Joe Biden repeated at the weekend that the US will “never give up” its support for Ukraine.

However, both the public and some Western politicians are becoming increasingly uncertain of the wisdom of continuing what is beginning to look more like another “forever war” and pouring more billions into the insatiable Ukrainian military blackhole.

And a possible ceases fire deal that includes Ukraine conceding some territory to Russia is clearly being discussed amongst the Nato allies. Stian Jenssen, chief of staff to Nato Secretary General Stoltenberg, put the cat amongst the pigeons last week by suggesting that Ukraine could consider ceding part of its territory to Russia in exchange for Nato membership, a statement he quickly walked back after an outcry from Kyiv.

A number of negative reports have recently appeared in the Western main stream press. The New York Times (NYT) reported on August 18 the total number of dead and injured in the war has topped 500,000, according to US intelligence services - more than gteh Vietnam and Afghan wars combined. The number of war deaths is usually a taboo subject as Kyiv has made the casualty figures a state secret.

US General Mark Milley, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, has been a hawk on the chances of Ukraine winning the war and repeated his scepticism again last week.

“I had said a couple of months ago that this offensive was going to be long, it’s going to be bloody it’s going to be slow,” he told The Post. “And that’s exactly what it is: long, bloody and slow, and it’s a very, very difficult fight.”

Milley said that there might be a diplomatic solution that would completely expel Russia from Ukraine, but implied that he didn’t believe there was a military solution.

Since the war, Ukraine has received a record $66.2bn in aid from the US, but some in Congress is becoming tired of the endless appropriations. Biden asked Congress for another $20bn in aid for Ukraine last week but the call was met with resistance and Republicans in the House have voiced opposition to additional money for Ukraine, reported the Washington Post.

“The bleak outlook [for the counteroffensive], briefed to some Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill, has already prompted a blame game inside closed-door meetings. Some Republicans are now balking at President Biden’s request for an additional $20.6bn in Ukraine aid given the offensive’s modest result,” the Washington Post reports.

Enthusiasm amongst the general public is also fading. A recent CNN poll found the majority Americans are against continuing to fund the Ukraine, although the majority of Democrats are for it, while the majority of Republicans are against it. Overall, 55% say the US Congress should not authorize additional funding to support Ukraine vs. 45% who say Congress should.

In Germany, where support for Ukraine has been strong amongst the population, the right-wing AfD (Alternative für Deutschland) party has become the second largest party in the country and has a strong anti-war platform.

Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba on August 17 acknowledged the slow pace of Ukraine’s counteroffensive but said Kyiv would not stop fighting until all its land is retaken. “We don’t care how long it takes,” he told the news agency Agence France-Presse.

More people and politicians are coming round to the idea that the war is unwinnable and are starting to ask why the West should keep funding it. As the next US presidential elections heaves into sight, the war in Ukraine is already becoming a political issue in the campaign – one that the Kremlin will watch closely.

Counteroffensive going slowly

Part of the problem is the much vaunted Ukrainian counteroffensive has failed to provide the spectacular successes that were achived with the Kharkiv assault last September.

Having provided Kyiv with significant new and powerful weapons following the Ramstein meeting in February last year, including a commitment to send modern Leopard 2 tanks and long-range missiles, the West was hoping for another hammer blow that would smash through Russian lines and pave the way for ceasefire talks.

However, that has failed to happen. According to reporting, the UK and the US were advising Kyiv to commit a large amount of reserves to a frontal assault and accept the high casualty rate that entails.

“Joint war games conducted by the US, British and Ukrainian militaries anticipated such losses but envisioned Kyiv accepting the casualties as the cost of piercing through Russia’s main defensive line,” according to US and Western officials talking to the Washington Post.

“But Ukraine chose to stem the losses on the battlefield and switch to a tactic of relying on smaller units to push forward across different areas of the front. That resulted in Ukraine making incremental gains in different pockets over the summer,” the paper reports, adding that the outlook for the counteroffensive is “bleak” according to Western official’s assessment.

Well aware that a big counterattack was on its way, Russia did not waste those eight months, while Kyiv tried to assemble sufficient Western materiel and train troops in their use, Russia built very extensive defences including hundreds of kilometres of minefields. Those minefields have proven impossible to cross and have up to five or six mines per square metre in some places, according to reports. The Ukrainian advance has been slowed to a crawl as a result.

Hopes were still alive in the first month of the counteroffensive of a big push after probing the Russian lines and “shaping” Russia’s defences with feinted attacks on the line in one place to weaken it in another. But if this was the strategy it has failed to create an obvious weakness.

Ukraine’s commanders are also now coming in for criticism for committing too many resources for the assault around Bakhmut, the epicentre of the war for the last eight months, which has reduced resources in the south where Ukraine was hoping to cut through the Russian held land bridge that connects the Crimea to the Russian mainland along the coast.

In the south the town of Melitopol is key as two major highways and a rail line meet at the town that are used to supply Russian troops from Crimea in the land bridge. But despite some progress, the AFU are still no way near taking the town, The Washington Post reports.

“That means Kyiv won’t fulfil its principal objective of severing Russia’s land bridge to Crimea in this year’s push,” an intelligence report said, cited by the Washington Post. That is because Russia has been, “brutal proficiency in defending occupied territory through a phalanx of minefields and trenches,” the report said.

And that is after all the AFU reserves, including the elite 82nd Air Assault brigade, a Western trained and entirely Western armed unit, have now all been committed to the fight with no visible effect.

The prospects of even more, even more powerful weapons, remains controversial. The “fighter jet coalition” of Ukraine’s supporters like Poland, have been pushing for the US to send F-16s to Ukraine, but a mere eight pilots (recently reduced to six) are still waiting for a six-month training programme to begin. Ukrainian military analyst Valery Romanenko said that even a squadron of 24 planes will not have a material impact on the outcome of the war.

After months of procrastinating, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy has been promised 42 US-made F-16 jet fighters by the Dutch government during an unannounced visit to the Netherlands on August 20. Denmark has promised to send 19 of its F-16 fighters as well, six of them before Christmas.

Despite the good news, the delivery of the planes is still not fully assured as the transfer needs permission from the US. Washington gave Denmark and the Netherlands official “assurances” that the United States will “expedite approval” of the transfer requests for F-16s to go to Ukraine, but only when the pilots have completed their training. That is not expected to happen for at least six months. There is still a strong possibility that Washington will delay granting the reexport permission after the pilot training is completed.

“F-16s can be used both for air defence and in traditional engagements with enemy aircraft,” Romanenko said in an interview. “It is not at all clear to us how we can win without any aviation at all or without long-range weapons. This is just nonsense… It’s all political,” he added speaking of the delays to the programme.

Peace deals

Bankova has said repeatedly that it will not cede land nor even start peace talks until Russian forces have been entirely expelled from Ukrainian territory. Poll after poll shows that the vast majority of the Ukrainian people are of the same opinion. That leaves the diplomatic process in a stalemate.

A deal that included territorial concessions, in that Zelenskiy suggested that he was prepared to kick the Crimea and Donbas issues down the road, was nearly done last April, as bne IntelliNews reported, but since then the positions of the two sides has moved so far apart as to be irreconcilable.

While it is widely assumed that the Western powers can bring the conflict to a halt at a whim, simply by cutting off supplies of weapons and ammo, the White House has painted itself into a corner by repeatedly saying that the decision to start talks lies with Kyiv alone, which is also responsible for the tactics used in the war.

As for the Kremlin, it has indicated that it is open to talks, however, Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it explicitly clear that Russia will not even discuss the return of the four regions it annexed last September, which include the Donbas, as they are now considered to be Russian sovereign territory. By extension, returning the Crimea is also off the table, as that has been considered Russian since 2014.

For the Nato allies, the war goal so far has been clearly “don’t let Ukraine lose.” However, “Ukraine must win the war” is not a Western war goal, irrespective of what Stoltenberg, a hawk in the war, may say. At the end of the day, Nato is a military alliance and it is the member countries that have the final say; the Nato body, headed by Stoltenberg, has no formal power to set any political agenda.

As bne IntelliNews has observed elsewhere, without sufficient guns and ammo, Ukraine has no hope of defeating Russia on the battlefield. And as Nato’s number one war goal is “don’t start WWIII by provoking Russia too far,” it is highly unlikely the allies will change their policy and arm Ukraine to win, rather than just not lose.

A frozen conflict is the most likely outcome from the war in Ukraine, not a Russian defeat. Indeed, the White House has said on multiple occasions that its plan is to deliver a crushing military blow so that Ukraine is “in the best possible position when it eventually goes to the negotiating table.”

In parallel to the military campaign has been the economic war being waged against Russia in the form of the extreme sanctions regime. But as bne IntelliNews has extensively reported that campaign is also failing. While sanctions have certainly hobbled the Russian economy and caused considerable plain, the Fiscal Fortress that Putin has built has proven to be remarkably robust. For example, Russia’s economy is expected to grow by 2-2.5% this year while Germany and the UK go into recession and the rest of the EU puts in anaemic growth. Sanctions will permanently reduce Russia’s growth potential so that it stagnates over the long-term, but in the short-term it has more than enough in reserves to continue the war for at least two more years before the Ministry of Finance has to begin to think about more radical measures like raising taxes.

Ceasefire talks can only begin when the Western allies concede this war is unwinnable. Kyiv has clearly taken the line that the war must be won, at any cost, and will keep doggedly fighting until that happens, even if it never happens.

Several peace plans have already been put on the table: the Chinese 12-point peace plan that was released on the anniversary of the start of the war; South African president Cyril Ramaphosa offered another plan during a trip to Kyiv in June; and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA) said that Ukraine’s sovereign integrity must be respected in any peace deal during an Arab-led peace summit in Jeddah in August that broke up without result. A third peace summit is scheduled for last this year and may be included in the upcoming BRICS summit this month.

However, with the counteroffensive still under way and several months of summer and autumn left it seems unlikely that any serious talks will start soon. Zelenskiy has politely rejected all these plans out of hand saying Kyiv has its own 10-point peace plan and is sticking to that, which starts with all the Russians must leave the country before anything else can happen.

But as winter settles in and the killed in action roll call mounts, unless the counteroffensive has delivery something more substantial in the way of progress than it has so far, it seems likely that the calls for an end to the war may grow louder. No one, not even the Russians, will relish the idea of another year of death and destruction with no hope for an end to the conflict in sight.

However, with the US presidential elections looming and with a return of Donald Trump a possibility, it may be Putin will wait to see what happens in the US presidential elections.

“Problem with starting talks now is that Putin has no incentive to compromise. As [former US ambassador to Moscow, Michael McFaul] points out, there is zero reason for the Kremlin to make any kind of deal until they know the results of the next US Presidential election. So another 15 months of stalemate, minimum,” journalist Owen Matthews said in a tweet.

Unsightly as a frozen conflict is, they litter the world and once established they can exist for decades: Korea’s DMZ, Turkey’s occupation of northern Cyprus, the Berlin wall, Palestine and the Kashmir to name a few. Another one in Eastern Ukraine would be second frozen conflict in Europe since the end of WWII, but would probably be soon forgotten, although the sanctions on Russia would become permanent
.
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Aug 21 2023 04:23am
Quote (ferdia @ 21 Aug 2023 18:01)
yes, understood, ty for clarification.



Also, thats alot of F16's. If this is just the start, who knows where we are going to end up.

Do you know how many F16's have been confirmed to date ?


Could, Pledge and when conditions are met.

Have you heard this words before ?

Johnny Depp and Amber Heard



When the planes land on Ukraine ground. That is when you say ok, they are serious.

:lol:
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Aug 21 2023 04:29am
Quote (Hamsterbaby @ Aug 21 2023 11:23am)
Could, Pledge and when conditions are met.

Have you heard this words before ?

Johnny Depp and Amber Heard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRYPWHNGSH4

When the planes land on Ukraine ground. That is when you say ok, they are serious.

:lol:


If Ukraine gets more then 200 F16's it will be a major escalation to the war, and if they get 300+ then they will have the capabilities, and intent, to start bombing Russia. That is where this looks to be going from where I am standing. As I understand Putin's mindset, Russia wont do anything preemptively (but from a strategic standpoint there is a very good reason for them to do so), so next year and probably the year after is going to be very very dangerous, for the world.

This post was edited by ferdia on Aug 21 2023 04:32am
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Aug 21 2023 04:38am
Quote (ferdia @ 21 Aug 2023 18:29)
If Ukraine gets more then 200 F16's it will be a major escalation to the war, and if they get 300+ then they will have the capabilities, and intent, to start bombing russia. That is where this looks to be going from where I am standing. As I understand the russian mindset, they wont do anything preemptively (but from a strategic standpoint there is a very good reason for them to do so), so next year and probably the year after is going to be very dangerous.


I don't think the West is sending F -16 Block 70 / 72 to Ukrainians.
The S -300 will settle them. And it is rather dumb because the US is supposed to sell Bulk F - 16s to Taiwan.
If the F - 16s perform badly , it will be LOL for Lockheed Martin.

My school mate was a F - 16 Pilot during national service in Singapore. He told me older versions are going to find it hard in Ukraine against Russian S-300 systems.
You still need to train them and get use to it.

A-10 is actually want is really needed to wipe out the Russian Ground forces. Even Apaches are going to help a huge deal.
F - 16s will not change the course of the war much , just like HIMARS, Javelins.
The media was talking and marketing so much about it. So where are the Russians now ? Pushed them back yet ? No..

This post was edited by Hamsterbaby on Aug 21 2023 04:39am
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Aug 21 2023 04:43am
Quote (Hamsterbaby @ Aug 21 2023 11:38am)
I don't think the West is sending F -16 Block 70 / 72 to Ukrainians.
The S -300 will settle them. And it is rather dumb because the US is supposed to sell Bulk F - 16s to Taiwan.
If the F - 16s perform badly , it will be LOL for Lockheed Martin.

My school mate was a F - 16 Pilot during national service in Singapore. He told me older versions are going to find it hard in Ukraine against Russian S-300 systems.
You still need to train them and get use to it.

A-10 is actually want is really needed to wipe out the Russian Ground forces. Even Apaches are going to help a huge deal.
F - 16s will not change the course of the war much , just like HIMARS, Javelins.
The media was talking and marketing so much about it. So where are the Russians now ? Pushed them back yet ? No..


Your not understanding. If Ukraine gets enough F16's to attain air superiority then Russia will have a serious problem. ignore what you are reading "wont change the war etc etc", if Ukraine has its skies, Russia is conventionally goosed. the population of Ukraine vs the population of Russia will no longer matter. Lets wait and see how many F16's ukraine gets. If they dont get more then 150 it means they have been betrayed by the West (but still cause problems for Russia). If they get more then 150 it means that the West seriously wants WW3 (as this would be a serious game changer).

fair disclosure: I dont know the tipping point of numbers of f16's. I plucked 150 out of the air. if there is someone else that can tell us how many F16's Ukraine would need to protect its skies, feel free to chip in. Mine was a guess after reading a bit about it.

F16's can engage russian craft from longer ranges. this as i understand it is one of the key requirements. I think the US and its allies are downplaying F16 capabilities.

This post was edited by ferdia on Aug 21 2023 04:56am
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Aug 21 2023 04:50am
Quote (ferdia @ 21 Aug 2023 18:43)
Your not understanding. If Ukraine gets enough F16's to attain air superiority then Russia will have a serious problem. ignore what you are reading "wont change the war etc etc", if Ukraine has its skies, Russia is conventionally goosed. the population of Ukraine vs the population of Russia will no longer matter. Lets wait and see how many F16's ukraine gets. If they dont get more then 150 it means they have been betrayed by the West (but still cause problems for Russia). If they get more then 150 it means that the West seriously wants WW3 (as this would be a serious game changer).


I will be surprised if they even give " 61 " to Ukraine. If Biden wins next year election, that will be a game changer for Ukraine. And the hardware and software will flow.
If WW3 comes, Good Luck EU.
If he doesn't......welp...
All eyes on USA Election.

Might be a good thing for EU though. All the Doctors and Engineers will go back to their own country. :P

This post was edited by Hamsterbaby on Aug 21 2023 04:52am
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Aug 21 2023 04:53am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Aug 20 2023 10:25pm)
Ok so they evacuated 500 people because these barbarians are shelling the city. No advance.
This is now 3 weeks we are hearing about Kupyansk.


Sinkova has already fallen ( a village 6-14km from Kupyansk). Kupyansk' Ukrainian Administration left the city. Those are confirmed by Ukrainians themselves. UAF is detonating bridges and is creating barricades to halt Russian advance. Looks like Bakhmut 3.0

This post was edited by babun1024 on Aug 21 2023 04:54am
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