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Aug 19 2023 10:55am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Aug 19 2023 01:51pm)
Did you actually read what I wrote?
Your conflating different instances completely.
Whatever you feel about Iraq it has no bearing on the Ukraine war and whether or not Russias actions show intent. They clearly do.

What kind of question is why was the Iraq war justified?
Who said it was justified? Stop strawmanning and moving the goalposts.

Form an argument based on the definition of genocide and convince me what Russia is doing is not clearly that.


So much for "instead of dodging" lol
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Aug 19 2023 10:58am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Aug 19 2023 12:51pm)
Did you actually read what I wrote?
Your conflating different instances completely.
Whatever you feel about Iraq it has no bearing on the Ukraine war and whether or not Russias actions show intent. They clearly do.

What kind of question is why was the Iraq war justified?
Who said it was justified? Stop strawmanning and moving the goalposts.

Form an argument based on the definition of genocide and convince me what Russia is doing is not clearly that.


I'm asking to explain your argument and why the scenarios are different. Simply saying they're different doesn't cut it. No one is strawmanning you, i'm asking you to explain your position, while you're dodging. Stop being a coward, it's not a complex question, and i'm sure you have an opinion.
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Aug 19 2023 11:02am
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Aug 19 2023 05:55pm)
So much for "instead of dodging" lol


yes you have to pretend that there were no previous wars and this is the first war that ever existed. the people that pushed for this war are the same people that pushed for the war in iraq, but remember, thats irrelevant because it happened yesterday not today. try to keep up, my god why are you looking at the details!

When one country invades its called freedom
When another country invades its called genocide

this is all so confusing to me!

:rolleyes:


This post was edited by ferdia on Aug 19 2023 11:05am
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Aug 19 2023 11:06am
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ 19 Aug 2023 18:45)
Okay how many pilots? And what makes you think that?
And how many do they need?


It's not an ON/OFF button, the more the better and only like 20 or 30 more jets they can significantly increase the russian jets overuse: aircrafts have a life span. While firing these Harms or whatever air-to-surface missiles which hurt like fuck.

/e

Quote (ferdia @ 19 Aug 2023 18:40)
The F16's are inferior planes to what the russians have. for them to be effective, they would need alot of them.
as far as i recall, russia has stated that they will have to respond somehow if f16's are sent to ukraine.

Quote (ferdia @ 19 Aug 2023 19:07)
50+ would be needed.


It's unusual that you are so sure about these very (military-)technical claims.
Anyway, Ukraine's allies have something like ... Thousands ?

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Aug 19 2023 11:11am
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Aug 19 2023 11:07am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Aug 19 2023 06:06pm)
It's not a ON/OFF button, the more the better and only like 20 or 30 more jets they can significantly increase the russian jets overuse: aircrafts have a life span. While firing these Harms or whatever air-to-surface missiles which hurt like fuck.


50+ would be needed.
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Aug 19 2023 11:08am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Aug 19 2023 05:58pm)
I'm asking to explain your argument and why the scenarios are different. Simply saying they're different doesn't cut it. No one is strawmanning you, i'm asking you to explain your position, while you're dodging. Stop being a coward, it's not a complex question, and i'm sure you have an opinion.


Let me refresh your memory, here is my argument.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Aug 18 2023 10:45pm)
Wagner have plenty members that are openly "nazis" check it out yourself. Why do you have such a leaning view of who or who isn't a nazi to Ukraine's detriment?
To me and not only me the intent from Russia is blatant. "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."
Examples but not confined to,
Bucha massacre, destruction of the Kakhovka Dam, indiscriminate strikes against civilian infrastructure eg: attacks on agriculture,on grain export infrastructure, energy infrastructures during winter. Even attacks on actual apartment buildings with no significant military importance.
I accept that two of these events could be callously chalked up as military actions. The Russian tactic that convinced me of their intention is the deportation of Ukrainian children.
You don't have to completely eradicate every person in an ethnicity for it to be an effective genocide. Removing young Ukrainians en masse not only denys Ukraine of an already living generation but of future potential generations.
Russia is actively and intentionally damaging Ukraine's demographic and their intentions are clear. Which is where I think yourself and ofthevoid are closed minded in this; You both appear to have the bar set higher than what the actual definition of genocide is, because of historical instances.



While I can see what your saying about diminishing the plight of Jews in WW2 for example, I completely disagree with you.
In my opinion the opposite is true. By claiming that what is happening today could never be as bad as what happened historically then its a spit in the face of people suffering an equally terrible situation today, relative to their own perception.

There isn't some scale of suffering as you appear to be applying; People are suffering in Ukraine what I believe is an attempted genocide. And I have given my reasons for that above, your welcome to disagree.
Take what ISIS did to Yazidi populations in Iraq and Syria. Estimates of those killed go as high as 5000 people. It is widely accepted as a genocide.
Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have died. Possibly tens of thousands of civilians alone.

It is simply not appropriate to compare one genocide to another as if its a pissing contest.

On this point you are sorely misguided. What your saying about preserving integrity and gravity of events like the holocaust is not unlike prejudice against one ethnicity or another.



Not even close. Far detached from reality. This is the behavior I and others are talking about. It makes you appear weak.


By definition what Russia is doing is genocide. The fact that so many users here are in denial is the most embarrassing thing.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

"A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group"

If you want to debate in good faith, then provide a counter argument on the Ukraine situation. I'm not here to answer a question of "was the Iraq war justified"
What sort of chicanery is that?





Quote (ferdia @ Aug 19 2023 06:02pm)
yes you have to pretend that there were no previous wars and this is the first war that ever existed. the people that pushed for this war are the same people that pushed for the war in iraq, but remember, thats irrelevant because it happened yesterday not today. try to keep up, my god why are you looking at the details!

When one country invades its called freedom
When another country invades its called genocide

this is all so confusing to me!

:rolleyes:


If you want to debate in good faith provide a counter argument, cheerleading is probably you level you've descended to however.
Just read your post yesterday claiming Russia is not doing total war. You've actually gone full shill already, pathetic.
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Aug 19 2023 11:13am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Aug 19 2023 01:08pm)
Let me refresh your memory, here is my argument.

By definition what Russia is doing is genocide. The fact that so many users here are in denial is the most embarrassing thing.


"A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group"

If you want to debate in good faith, then provide a counter argument on the Ukraine situation. I'm not here to answer a question of "was the Iraq war justified"
What sort of chicanery is that?


Literally these were present in Iraq as well, and the 3-4 other conflicts we were in or indirectly supported in the last 25 years. So I can deduce then that you also think Iraq was a genocide?

This is a good faith argument. I'm asking you pretty fundamental questions, which is why do you view this war as so much worse compared to western ones. So far you haven't given a response. Now the response is you're not here to answer those types of questions. Okay :rolleyes:

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Aug 19 2023 11:14am
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Aug 19 2023 11:15am
Quote (ferdia @ Aug 19 2023 02:02pm)
yes you have to pretend that there were no previous wars and this is the first war that ever existed. the people that pushed for this war are the same people that pushed for the war in iraq, but remember, thats irrelevant because it happened yesterday not today. try to keep up, my god why are you looking at the details!

When one country invades its called freedom
When another country invades its called genocide

this is all so confusing to me!

:rolleyes:

I like how much the lyrics of this apply to the US now :D


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Aug 19 2023 11:27am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Aug 19 2023 06:06pm)
It's not an ON/OFF button, the more the better and only like 20 or 30 more jets they can significantly increase the russian jets overuse: aircrafts have a life span. While firing these Harms or whatever air-to-surface missiles which hurt like fuck.

/e




It's unusual that you are so sure about these very (military-)technical claims.
Anyway, Ukraine's allies have something like ... Thousands ?


I posted several links relating to F16's throughout the year in the topic. The F16's is, as i stated, inferior to the russian jets and they would literately be sparrows trying to escape hawks. Every time they went up they would be out numbered. in a military conflict such as what we see in Ukraine, between 20% and 50% would ever be in need of repair. When you consider the size of ukraine, i must revise my figure upwards, to over 100 f16's needed, at minimum, for ukraine to be able to realistically use them (without them all being instantly shot down).

If you have any more questions about f16's just ask, there are alot of sources relating to same (and ukraine).

Poland has 46 F16's
Belgium has 54 F16's
Netherlands has 24 F16's
Norway has 60 F16's

this is not 1000's ok.

This post was edited by ferdia on Aug 19 2023 11:32am
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Aug 19 2023 11:29am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Aug 19 2023 06:13pm)
Literally these were present in Iraq as well, and the 3-4 other conflicts we were in or indirectly supported in the last 25 years. So I can deduce then that you also think Iraq was a genocide?

This is a good faith argument. I'm asking you pretty fundamental questions, which is why do you view this war as so much worse compared to western ones. So far you haven't given a response. Now the response is you're not here to answer those types of questions. Okay :rolleyes:


So then we agree? What was all the kicking and screaming about? :rofl:
This parsing Russia's actions as justified because other wars have occurred is pathetic; Your not the first and won't likely be the last to try and justify Putin's actions this way.

If you apply the United Nations criteria to what Russia is doing in Ukraine, it is fair and balanced to accept their actions are intended genocide.
Is that not the case?

"A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
Killing members of the group - Yes
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group - Yes
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part - Yes
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group - Not provenForcibly transferring children of the group to another group" - Yes"

Is that not the case?

Quote (ferdia @ Aug 19 2023 06:27pm)
I posted several links relating to F16's throughout the year in the topic. The F16's is, as i stated, inferior to the russian jets and they would literately be sparrows trying to escape hawks. Every time they went up they would be out numbered. in a military conflict such as what we see in Ukraine, between 20% and 50% would ever be in need of repair. When you consider the size of ukraine, i must revise my figure upwards, to over 100 f16's needed, at minimum, for ukraine to be able to realistically use them (without them all being instantly shot down).

If you have any more questions about f16's just ask, there are alot of sources relating to same (and ukraine).


Inaccurate.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Aug 19 2023 11:30am
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