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Aug 18 2023 02:53pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Aug 18 2023 01:31pm)
I don't really see Russians forcing Ukrainians to learn Russian or abandon their culture tbh. We can agree to a certain extent that something like this was a thing under the Soviet union, particularly in the earlier days, but that's really more of a function of trying to homogenize a population because under communism it's a lot easier to control and program a population that's the same so they would buy into the 'collective' so the underlying reason of why it's happening is important. There's a world of difference between wanting a subgroup to adopt the mainstream language, customs, largely in a relatively peaceful way and what we currently thing as genocide.

My biggest gripe over changing definitions of words based on what's currently in fashion or what currently suits our interests is it fundamentally erodes the historically established meaning, and value of historical events. When we label something like this a genocide, you're putting it in the same language bucket list as millions of Jews getting rounded up like cattle and thrown into a furnace. It's a genuine spit in the face to historical events like that because by labeling them both genocides, you fundamentally water down the scale and absolutely horrific suffering they endured.

It's important to preserve the integrity and gravity of events like the Holocaust, like the Armenian genocide, like the killing fields under Pol Pot. I'm sorry but wars like Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. simply don't belong in the same group as the former ones.


Yes

This is not a genocide and it's not even close. Genocide means something. Nazi also means something which also has been watered down ("Trump supporters are nazis")
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Aug 18 2023 03:26pm
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Aug 18 2023 09:42pm)
When you see the words "literal genocide" you think it means removing some references in a textbook? Is that what you think he meant?

But sure, in this era genocide is used to describe a wide range of activities. For example the state of Florida has a genocidal leader at the moment who is running for President. America is passively commiting genocide against its allies and neighbours via their massive entertainment industry. Those are both true under that broad definition but hardly anyone describes it that way, I wonder why.

Personally I think that devalues the term completely to a point where it really doesn't mean anything.


exactly.
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Aug 18 2023 03:26pm
Russia’s elections chief said Friday that Russia has no use for Western-style democracy, just weeks before regional elections are set to take place across the country.
:)
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Aug 18 2023 03:45pm
Quote (El1te @ Aug 18 2023 09:21pm)
It doesn't matter if there are some nazi-ideology supporters in the Wagner group/Russian military. They are not flying the banner, they are not displaying the symbols, they are not organized.

You can say the same thing about any Western military. Are there lots of nazi ideology supporters in the US military? Yes. French military? Yes. You get my point.

My point is not ill conceived. The Azov battalion and others are flag bearing outright nazis, there's no level of interpretation here.

Your definition of genocide is odd. Can you support evidence towards mass killings of Ukrainians that are not engaged in open belligerency? (e.g. deaths in war)


Wagner have plenty members that are openly "nazis" check it out yourself. Why do you have such a leaning view of who or who isn't a nazi to Ukraine's detriment?
To me and not only me the intent from Russia is blatant. "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."
Examples but not confined to,
Bucha massacre, destruction of the Kakhovka Dam, indiscriminate strikes against civilian infrastructure eg: attacks on agriculture,on grain export infrastructure, energy infrastructures during winter. Even attacks on actual apartment buildings with no significant military importance.
I accept that two of these events could be callously chalked up as military actions. The Russian tactic that convinced me of their intention is the deportation of Ukrainian children.
You don't have to completely eradicate every person in an ethnicity for it to be an effective genocide. Removing young Ukrainians en masse not only denys Ukraine of an already living generation but of future potential generations.
Russia is actively and intentionally damaging Ukraine's demographic and their intentions are clear. Which is where I think yourself and ofthevoid are closed minded in this; You both appear to have the bar set higher than what the actual definition of genocide is, because of historical instances.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Aug 18 2023 09:31pm)
I don't really see Russians forcing Ukrainians to learn Russian or abandon their culture tbh. We can agree to a certain extent that something like this was a thing under the Soviet union, particularly in the earlier days, but that's really more of a function of trying to homogenize a population because under communism it's a lot easier to control and program a population that's the same so they would buy into the 'collective' so the underlying reason of why it's happening is important. There's a world of difference between wanting a subgroup to adopt the mainstream language, customs, largely in a relatively peaceful way and what we currently thing as genocide.

My biggest gripe over changing definitions of words based on what's currently in fashion or what currently suits our interests is it fundamentally erodes the historically established meaning, and value of historical events. When we label something like this a genocide, you're putting it in the same language bucket list as millions of Jews getting rounded up like cattle and thrown into a furnace. It's a genuine spit in the face to historical events like that because by labeling them both genocides, you fundamentally water down the scale and absolutely horrific suffering they endured.

It's important to preserve the integrity and gravity of events like the Holocaust, like the Armenian genocide, like the killing fields under Pol Pot. I'm sorry but wars like Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. simply don't belong in the same group as the former ones.


While I can see what your saying about diminishing the plight of Jews in WW2 for example, I completely disagree with you.
In my opinion the opposite is true. By claiming that what is happening today could never be as bad as what happened historically then its a spit in the face of people suffering an equally terrible situation today, relative to their own perception.

There isn't some scale of suffering as you appear to be applying; People are suffering in Ukraine what I believe is an attempted genocide. And I have given my reasons for that above, your welcome to disagree.
Take what ISIS did to Yazidi populations in Iraq and Syria. Estimates of those killed go as high as 5000 people. It is widely accepted as a genocide.
Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have died. Possibly tens of thousands of civilians alone.

It is simply not appropriate to compare one genocide to another as if its a pissing contest.

On this point you are sorely misguided. What your saying about preserving integrity and gravity of events like the holocaust is not unlike prejudice against one ethnicity or another.

Quote (ferdia @ Aug 18 2023 10:26pm)
exactly.


Not even close. Far detached from reality. This is the behavior I and others are talking about. It makes you appear weak.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Aug 18 2023 03:49pm
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Aug 18 2023 04:36pm
[QUOTE=Prox1m1ty,Aug 18 2023 05:45pm

While I can see what your saying about diminishing the plight of Jews in WW2 for example, I completely disagree with you.
In my opinion the opposite is true. By claiming that what is happening today could never be as bad as what happened historically then its a spit in the face of people suffering an equally terrible situation today, relative to their own perception.

There isn't some scale of suffering as you appear to be applying; People are suffering in Ukraine what I believe is an attempted genocide. And I have given my reasons for that above, your welcome to disagree.
Take what ISIS did to Yazidi populations in Iraq and Syria. Estimates of those killed go as high as 5000 people. It is widely accepted as a genocide.
Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have died. Possibly tens of thousands of civilians alone.

It is simply not appropriate to compare one genocide to another as if its a pissing contest.

On this point you are sorely misguided. What your saying about preserving integrity and gravity of events like the holocaust is not unlike prejudice against one ethnicity or another.

[/QUOTE]

Would be a fair point except the same camp that is supporting the war in Ukraine today was the one that argued for interventions in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan (it's always the neocons telling people why this next thing is absolutely a good reason to do it).

People are suffering in Ukraine, just like people suffered in Iraq, with hundreds of thousands of dead civilians and some estimates putting overall number close to a million. Russia's invasion is no where close to that nor are their civilians deaths close to that. Can you let me know when US/UK soldiers were labeled Orcs? Can you let me know when the MSM labeled that invasion a genocide? Show me the sanctions on the US, GB for sending thousands of troops on the completely false premise of WMDs?

Oh and before you tell you were against the war in Iraq, I don't care, magically literally everyone is now, but contrary to you I don't buy the bullshit by the same people that sold us that war and others (Libya, Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan and so on) which today are the ones that are beating the war drum in Ukraine.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Aug 18 2023 04:42pm
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Aug 18 2023 04:47pm
Genocide, definitions points:

Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

=>

- Executing civilians
- Raping, torturing civilians
- Destroying heating sources (electricity) in full winter
- Deporting children far away in Russia, "re-educating" them


What I say is that, quantitavely, it cannot be compared with WW2 or recents big scale massacres, but technically many points are validated -4/5- and I am curious what could have happen if military support was not here.

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Aug 18 2023 04:50pm
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Aug 18 2023 10:29pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 18 Aug 2023 07:28)
The Western sanctions were never able to stop Russian exports altogether, just reduced the market for them and increased the cost, with the idea being that some of the additional costs imposed through the sanctions would eat into Russia's profit margin. Furthermore, their exports could resume as soon as the Western sanctions are lifted. By contrast, it will take years to replace destroyed ships or terminals.

Also, let's not pretend like Western sanctions were focused on Russia's grain exports - the focus has always been oil and natural gas.


And Russia hasn't destroyed all of Ukraine's grain. What's your point? It will take years to reintegrate Russia even if sanctions stop tomorrow. The US tried to scorch Earth Russia's economy. You're a hypocrite who supports destroying Russia's grain while decrying the destruction of Ukraine's grain. Well too bad what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

This post was edited by Vastet on Aug 18 2023 10:30pm
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Aug 18 2023 10:32pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ 18 Aug 2023 17:26)
Russia’s elections chief said Friday that Russia has no use for Western-style democracy, just weeks before regional elections are set to take place across the country.
:)


Considering Western democracy isn't a democracy it's just rich assholes getting richer, I'd say Russia has the right idea.
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Aug 18 2023 10:47pm
Quote (Vastet @ 19 Aug 2023 12:32)
Considering Western democracy isn't a democracy it's just rich assholes getting richer, I'd say Russia has the right idea.


Poignant but factual.
Western Democracy doesn't reflect what it used to be. As a matter of fact it is now an Achilles heel of sorts.

To have a successful democracy , you need to have at least 65 to 70% of your population to be well educated, informed and rational.
Democracy have it pros and cons, lets not forget that the Nazi party was voted in via democracy albeit with Violence and voter intimidation.

The largest backlash of a democracy is when charismatic leaders decides to manipulate voters through their fears and anger. And it works extremely well when a country or nation is going through a period of decline or economical depression.

It is human nature that we always blame someone else instead of looking at ourselves. Depending on the timeline, a particular country, race or religion etc etc will be used as a scapegoat for the suffering of the people.

Not only will they get the mass to support them on most of the things they do, even seemingly atrocious policies are deem needed in the interest of the country and nation.

This applies to both sides of the political spectrum and is not endemic to one.

Such is life. And most people gets thoroughly absorbed into such narrative with absolute no rationale and common sense.
Only an incredible lose of life through a terrible war can wake people up.

It is history, The further you look back, the further you look forward.. But people never look back.

The current democracy that we are looking at now isn't much different to any other political ideologue to be honest.
The ability to vote is rather delusional. But one thing good is you don't get sent to the gulags I supposed, however that being said you might be emotionally and mentally cancelled , pressured and violated depending on who sits on the throne.

This post was edited by Hamsterbaby on Aug 18 2023 10:58pm
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Aug 19 2023 02:01am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Aug 18 2023 11:36pm)


Would be a fair point except the same camp that is supporting the war in Ukraine today was the one that argued for interventions in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan (it's always the neocons telling people why this next thing is absolutely a good reason to do it).

People are suffering in Ukraine, just like people suffered in Iraq, with hundreds of thousands of dead civilians and some estimates putting overall number close to a million. Russia's invasion is no where close to that nor are their civilians deaths close to that. Can you let me know when US/UK soldiers were labeled Orcs? Can you let me know when the MSM labeled that invasion a genocide? Show me the sanctions on the US, GB for sending thousands of troops on the completely false premise of WMDs?

Oh and before you tell you were against the war in Iraq, I don't care, magically literally everyone is now, but contrary to you I don't buy the bullshit by the same people that sold us that war and others (Libya, Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan and so on) which today are the ones that are beating the war drum in Ukraine.


The conundrum that breaks a lot of arguments. very well written post.



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