I'd like to hear this.

the current definition as used by the west, related to the word genocide entails :

includes violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.

this definition is being loosely interpreted by western media, i.e. forcing ukrainians to learn russian has been dumped into that definition as "genocide" and there have been articles written using this terminology on the matter. this is but an example, i can get 5-10 more examples if you want. some words, in this regard, have lost their meaning.

no doubt some people will refer to quotes from Putin as related to Ukraine, however saying something and doing it are different things, and Russia is not actually trying to wipe Ukraine off the map, therefore the old meaning of the word genocide is not occurring.

This is well worth reading : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine and highlights the mental gymnastics the west is currently doing as related to the word "genocide".

I think I read somewhere that moving people around can also now be classed as genocide. its a bit like there are now 70 genders and I now identify as a banana. if that makes sense.

TLDR: Russia has invaded Ukraine, and they are at war. Russia is not doing total war, it is a very odd war, probably why they call it a special military operation, in that they have taken what they want and dont appear to want to go all the way to the polish border, ergo, I find it impossible to define this as genocide, where I to use the old meaning of the word.


This post was edited by ferdia on Aug 18 2023 02:28pm

It doesn't matter if there are some nazi-ideology supporters in the Wagner group/Russian military. They are not flying the banner, they are not displaying the symbols, they are not organized.

You can say the same thing about any Western military. Are there lots of nazi ideology supporters in the US military? Yes. French military? Yes. You get my point.

My point is not ill conceived. The Azov battalion and others are flag bearing outright nazis, there's no level of interpretation here.

Your definition of genocide is odd. Can you support evidence towards mass killings of Ukrainians that are not engaged in open belligerency? (e.g. deaths in war)

Russia is far more "neo-nazi" than Ukraine and this article is pretty clear about it

https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/do-not-believe-putins-propaganda-there-are-far-more-neo-nazis-among-pro-russians

until either side turns on the ovens and showers the whole "nazi" talking point is a bit silly. neither side ARE nazis, one side seems to have some cosplayers as nazis, and the other invaded another sovereign nation which is nazi behavior.

but we dont remember nazis because of their uniforms, or even because they started a war (countless people have started and gone on to win or lose wars), we remember the nazis because of the Holocaust.

I don't really see Russians forcing Ukrainians to learn Russian or abandon their culture tbh. We can agree to a certain extent that something like this was a thing under the Soviet union, particularly in the earlier days, but that's really more of a function of trying to homogenize a population because under communism it's a lot easier to control and program a population that's the same so they would buy into the 'collective' so the underlying reason of why it's happening is important. There's a world of difference between wanting a subgroup to adopt the mainstream language, customs, largely in a relatively peaceful way and what we currently thing as genocide.

My biggest gripe over changing definitions of words based on what's currently in fashion or what currently suits our interests is it fundamentally erodes the historically established meaning, and value of historical events. When we label something like this a genocide, you're putting it in the same language bucket list as millions of Jews getting rounded up like cattle and thrown into a furnace. It's a genuine spit in the face to historical events like that because by labeling them both genocides, you fundamentally water down the scale and absolutely horrific suffering they endured.

It's important to preserve the integrity and gravity of events like the Holocaust, like the Armenian genocide, like the killing fields under Pol Pot. I'm sorry but wars like Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. simply don't belong in the same group as the former ones.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Aug 18 2023 02:32pm

i 100% agree with you.

i agree wholeheartedly with the troubling trend in recent times to water down effectual phrases or words just to serve an argument. and that's why there are no nazis in ukraine, and the russians also arent nazis. putin isn't hitler, neither is trump. telling a black woman u like her hair isn't racism, and the attacks on white people don't justify a lot of the victimization white people express.

everyone these days is a whiny bozo, sadly.

When you see the words "literal genocide" you think it means removing some references in a textbook? Is that what you think he meant?

But sure, in this era genocide is used to describe a wide range of activities. For example the state of Florida has a genocidal leader at the moment who is running for President. America is passively commiting genocide against its allies and neighbours via their massive entertainment industry. Those are both true under that broad definition but hardly anyone describes it that way, I wonder why.

Personally I think that devalues the term completely to a point where it really doesn't mean anything.

I think your reasoning is odd - by your reasoning, you wouldn't be concerned if a political party in the West arises as a neo-Nazi party bearing all the same symbols, ideology, and rhetoric, since they have not yet engaged in open mass murder?

I do agree that the whole discussion of nazis is a bit silly though since it simply doesn't matter. The Russian government stated that the operation of Nazis in Ukraine was a reason for their invasion. So it is what it is, discussion doesn't change anything here. Either you think Russia is justified or is not justified in the invasion, presence of Nazis or not will not change peoples opinion