d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev1332333243325332633274527Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 26,556
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 20,065.00
Aug 18 2023 02:15pm
Quote (ferdia @ Aug 18 2023 04:12pm)
the key point is what is the current definition of genocide in this era we live in. i.e. the definition i am using does not relate to anyone being killed.

I can easily convince you that russia is doing this, if you want to debate this in good faith.


I'd like to hear this.
Member
Posts: 51,716
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 15,520.00
Aug 18 2023 02:19pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Aug 18 2023 09:15pm)
I'd like to hear this.


the current definition as used by the west, related to the word genocide entails :

includes violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.

this definition is being loosely interpreted by western media, i.e. forcing ukrainians to learn russian has been dumped into that definition as "genocide" and there have been articles written using this terminology on the matter. this is but an example, i can get 5-10 more examples if you want. some words, in this regard, have lost their meaning.

no doubt some people will refer to quotes from Putin as related to Ukraine, however saying something and doing it are different things, and Russia is not actually trying to wipe Ukraine off the map, therefore the old meaning of the word genocide is not occurring.

This is well worth reading : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine and highlights the mental gymnastics the west is currently doing as related to the word "genocide".

I think I read somewhere that moving people around can also now be classed as genocide. its a bit like there are now 70 genders and I now identify as a banana. if that makes sense.

TLDR: Russia has invaded Ukraine, and they are at war. Russia is not doing total war, it is a very odd war, probably why they call it a special military operation, in that they have taken what they want and dont appear to want to go all the way to the polish border, ergo, I find it impossible to define this as genocide, where I to use the old meaning of the word.


This post was edited by ferdia on Aug 18 2023 02:28pm
Member
Posts: 29,691
Joined: May 25 2007
Gold: 2,075.69
Aug 18 2023 02:21pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Aug 18 2023 01:10pm)
Wagner and Russia itself is rife with nazis and ultra nationalists.
The Kremlin bankrolls Wagner.

You agree any invasion of Russia would be justified?
Or you just accept your point was ill conceived?

Trying to justify a genocide is an unusual hill to die on.


It doesn't matter if there are some nazi-ideology supporters in the Wagner group/Russian military. They are not flying the banner, they are not displaying the symbols, they are not organized.

You can say the same thing about any Western military. Are there lots of nazi ideology supporters in the US military? Yes. French military? Yes. You get my point.

My point is not ill conceived. The Azov battalion and others are flag bearing outright nazis, there's no level of interpretation here.

Your definition of genocide is odd. Can you support evidence towards mass killings of Ukrainians that are not engaged in open belligerency? (e.g. deaths in war)
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Aug 18 2023 02:22pm
Russia is far more "neo-nazi" than Ukraine and this article is pretty clear about it

https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/do-not-believe-putins-propaganda-there-are-far-more-neo-nazis-among-pro-russians
Member
Posts: 91,166
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,504.69
Aug 18 2023 02:28pm
Quote (El1te @ Aug 18 2023 03:21pm)
It doesn't matter if there are some nazi-ideology supporters in the Wagner group/Russian military. They are not flying the banner, they are not displaying the symbols, they are not organized.

You can say the same thing about any Western military. Are there lots of nazi ideology supporters in the US military? Yes. French military? Yes. You get my point.

My point is not ill conceived. The Azov battalion and others are flag bearing outright nazis, there's no level of interpretation here.

Your definition of genocide is odd. Can you support evidence towards mass killings of Ukrainians that are not engaged in open belligerency? (e.g. deaths in war)


until either side turns on the ovens and showers the whole "nazi" talking point is a bit silly. neither side ARE nazis, one side seems to have some cosplayers as nazis, and the other invaded another sovereign nation which is nazi behavior.

but we dont remember nazis because of their uniforms, or even because they started a war (countless people have started and gone on to win or lose wars), we remember the nazis because of the Holocaust.
Member
Posts: 26,556
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 20,065.00
Aug 18 2023 02:31pm
Quote (ferdia @ Aug 18 2023 04:19pm)
the current definition as used by the west, related to the word genocide entails :

includes violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.

this definition is being loosely interpreted and forcing ukrainians to learn russian has been dumped into that definition. this is but an example.


I don't really see Russians forcing Ukrainians to learn Russian or abandon their culture tbh. We can agree to a certain extent that something like this was a thing under the Soviet union, particularly in the earlier days, but that's really more of a function of trying to homogenize a population because under communism it's a lot easier to control and program a population that's the same so they would buy into the 'collective' so the underlying reason of why it's happening is important. There's a world of difference between wanting a subgroup to adopt the mainstream language, customs, largely in a relatively peaceful way and what we currently thing as genocide.

My biggest gripe over changing definitions of words based on what's currently in fashion or what currently suits our interests is it fundamentally erodes the historically established meaning, and value of historical events. When we label something like this a genocide, you're putting it in the same language bucket list as millions of Jews getting rounded up like cattle and thrown into a furnace. It's a genuine spit in the face to historical events like that because by labeling them both genocides, you fundamentally water down the scale and absolutely horrific suffering they endured.

It's important to preserve the integrity and gravity of events like the Holocaust, like the Armenian genocide, like the killing fields under Pol Pot. I'm sorry but wars like Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. simply don't belong in the same group as the former ones.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Aug 18 2023 02:32pm
Member
Posts: 51,716
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 15,520.00
Aug 18 2023 02:32pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Aug 18 2023 09:31pm)
I don't really see Russians forcing Ukrainians to learn Russian or abandon their culture tbh. We can agree to a certain extent that something like this was a thing under the Soviet union, particularly in the earlier days, but that's really more of a function of trying to homogenize a population because under communism it's a lot easier to control and program a population that's the same so they would buy into the 'collective' so the underlying reason of why it's happening is important. There's a world of difference between wanted a subgroup to adopt the mainstream language, customs, largely in a relatively peaceful way and what we currently thing as genocide.

My biggest gripe over changing definitions of words based on what's currently in fashion or what currently suits our interests is it fundamentally erodes the historically established meaning, and value of historical events. When we label something like this a genocide, you're putting in the same bucket list as millions of Jews getting rounded up like cattle and thrown into a furnace. It's a genuine spit in the face to historical events like that because by labeling them both genocides, you fundamentally water down the scale and absolutely horrific suffering they endured.

It's important to preserve the integrity and gravity of events like the Holocaust, like the Armenian genocide, like the killing fields under Pol Pot. I'm sorry but wars like Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. simply don't belong in the same group as the former ones.


i 100% agree with you.
Member
Posts: 91,166
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,504.69
Aug 18 2023 02:42pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Aug 18 2023 03:31pm)
I don't really see Russians forcing Ukrainians to learn Russian or abandon their culture tbh. We can agree to a certain extent that something like this was a thing under the Soviet union, particularly in the earlier days, but that's really more of a function of trying to homogenize a population because under communism it's a lot easier to control and program a population that's the same so they would buy into the 'collective' so the underlying reason of why it's happening is important. There's a world of difference between wanting a subgroup to adopt the mainstream language, customs, largely in a relatively peaceful way and what we currently thing as genocide.

My biggest gripe over changing definitions of words based on what's currently in fashion or what currently suits our interests is it fundamentally erodes the historically established meaning, and value of historical events. When we label something like this a genocide, you're putting it in the same language bucket list as millions of Jews getting rounded up like cattle and thrown into a furnace. It's a genuine spit in the face to historical events like that because by labeling them both genocides, you fundamentally water down the scale and absolutely horrific suffering they endured.

It's important to preserve the integrity and gravity of events like the Holocaust, like the Armenian genocide, like the killing fields under Pol Pot. I'm sorry but wars like Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. simply don't belong in the same group as the former ones.


i agree wholeheartedly with the troubling trend in recent times to water down effectual phrases or words just to serve an argument. and that's why there are no nazis in ukraine, and the russians also arent nazis. putin isn't hitler, neither is trump. telling a black woman u like her hair isn't racism, and the attacks on white people don't justify a lot of the victimization white people express.

everyone these days is a whiny bozo, sadly.
Member
Posts: 4,145
Joined: Jun 30 2022
Gold: 4.91
Warn: 20%
Aug 18 2023 02:42pm
Quote (ferdia @ Aug 18 2023 05:12pm)
the key point is what is the current definition of genocide in this era we live in. i.e. the definition i am using does not relate to anyone being killed.

I can easily convince you that russia is doing this, if you want to debate this in good faith.

here is a simple example of what, in the western world is now termed "genocide".

1. Some Russian textbooks have allegedly removed references to Kyiv and Ukraine, with analysts claiming Moscow is "rewriting history". This relates to the expression "cultural genocide".


When you see the words "literal genocide" you think it means removing some references in a textbook? Is that what you think he meant?

But sure, in this era genocide is used to describe a wide range of activities. For example the state of Florida has a genocidal leader at the moment who is running for President. America is passively commiting genocide against its allies and neighbours via their massive entertainment industry. Those are both true under that broad definition but hardly anyone describes it that way, I wonder why.

Personally I think that devalues the term completely to a point where it really doesn't mean anything.
Member
Posts: 29,691
Joined: May 25 2007
Gold: 2,075.69
Aug 18 2023 02:50pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Aug 18 2023 01:28pm)
until either side turns on the ovens and showers the whole "nazi" talking point is a bit silly. neither side ARE nazis, one side seems to have some cosplayers as nazis, and the other invaded another sovereign nation which is nazi behavior.

but we dont remember nazis because of their uniforms, or even because they started a war (countless people have started and gone on to win or lose wars), we remember the nazis because of the Holocaust.


I think your reasoning is odd - by your reasoning, you wouldn't be concerned if a political party in the West arises as a neo-Nazi party bearing all the same symbols, ideology, and rhetoric, since they have not yet engaged in open mass murder?

I do agree that the whole discussion of nazis is a bit silly though since it simply doesn't matter. The Russian government stated that the operation of Nazis in Ukraine was a reason for their invasion. So it is what it is, discussion doesn't change anything here. Either you think Russia is justified or is not justified in the invasion, presence of Nazis or not will not change peoples opinion
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1332333243325332633274527Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll