Quote (Hamsterbaby @ Aug 17 2023 08:29am)

In regards to all those agreements. I m sure FEP and Potus will look at you and say. It is what it is. ^_^

Quote (ferdia @ 17 Aug 2023 09:25)

What about the Minsk agreements ? I accept this is difficult to swallow but western leaders have recently come out and said that they signed those agreement(s) in bad faith with no intention to abide by them but rather to give Ukraine time (presumably to build up its army). Feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong there. Does this not affect your position that "The only kind of peace deal they're interested in is one on their terms?" If the west takes such an approach to serious international matters and there is such bad faith, it is a wonder that Russia does not do total war (invading all of Ukraine, indiscriminate war). Look at the Iran nuclear deal. When a country (the US) acts in such bad faith, it erodes any legitimacy it has in the region, the same principal applies to Ukraine.

The fact is that Russia has ever sought to negotiate but that the US and England are on record (this is freely available information online) as explicitly telling Ukraine not to negotiate and now is not the time to negotiate. Well, if now is not the time, when is the time ?? In terms of negotiating, as it stands currently, Russia would be in a position of strength, and therefore yes they would have terms, which would include Donetsk and Luhansk as well as Crimea not being a part of Ukraine. but ultimately its a negotiation. You speak of further conquests, but what further conquests are you talking about ? if Russia wanted to invade all of Ukraine they would have done that already, and they are not about to invade Poland. Independent observers reported that Ukraine misbehaved before the outbreak of war, this fact seems to have been forgotten. From the Russian viewpoint they are protecting their interests, they are not seeking to rebuild the USSR (i accept that this is a narrative spun in our media).

Realistically a decisive victory on the battlefield, for Ukraine, would result in Russia mobilizing more troops. Russia has already indicated it is now upgrading its armed forces in response to this conflict. Therefore a decisive victory from Ukraine will not have the intended affect in my opinion. I do agree that the conflict may at times stall or "freeze" until ukraine regroups and tries again. This could last 20 years until Ukraine accepts the reality.

Quote (fender @ Aug 17 2023 08:47am)

they actually DID that. they DID move on kyiv. it was waaaay back in 2022 though, and their attack was repelled, so naturally you might not (want to) remember - just like you "forgot" to explain why calling a dictator "pootin" is allegedly "racist", and how blackz' description of russia's unmarked troops in donbas is different from mine - or how you "forgot" how you and your buddies (all pro russia posters unsurprisingly) keep insulting people, while at the same time clutching your pearls about inapproriate language and civility... while russian troops are murdering ukrainian civilians on the daily.

Quote (ferdia @ 17 Aug 2023 16:14)

does this rabid frothing of the mouth never get tiring ? are you not able to make a statement without using insults ?

Quote (ferdia @ 17 Aug 2023 15:33)

i made an edit but what do you mean ?

Quote (ferdia @ 17 Aug 2023 09:25)

What about the Minsk agreements ? I accept this is difficult to swallow but western leaders have recently come out and said that they signed those agreement(s) in bad faith with no intention to abide by them but rather to give Ukraine time (presumably to build up its army). Feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong there.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 17 2023 09:28am)

That's new to me, could you give me 1-2 sources for this claim?

Quote (Black XistenZ @ 17 Aug 2023 10:28)

That's new to me, could you give me 1-2 sources for this claim?

Quote

She believes that back then, and then later during the Minsk talks, she was able to buy the time Ukraine needed to better fend off the Russian attack. She says it is now a strong, well-fortified country. Back then, she is certain, it would have been overrun by Putin’s troops.

Quote

According to Hollande, the Normandy Format meetings, launched in June 2014 and included the leaders of France, Germany, Ukraine, and Russia, bought Ukraine time to prepare, while the subsequent Minsk Agreements tried to push Putin towards a diplomatic path.

Quote (Malopox @ Aug 17 2023 09:52am)

Mercel: https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-year-with-ex-chancellor-merkel-you-re-done-with-power-politics-a-f46149cb-6deb-45a8-887c-8aa37cc9b3c3

Original is in Die Zeit but paywalled and in German:
https://www.zeit.de/2022/51/angela-merkel-russland-fluechtlingskrise-bundeskanzler



Hollande: https://kyivindependent.com/hollande-there-will-only-be-a-way-out-of-the-conflict-when-russia-fails-on-the-ground/



You could argue if this indeed was the intent all along or they are saying this with the benefit of hindsight to clear the name for their memoirs.

Quote (Hamsterbaby @ 17 Aug 2023 10:21)

Why are you still replying to that Karen. :lol:



What meant is they can and will disregard agreements when it fits their interests.

Quote (ferdia @ 17 Aug 2023 10:14)

does this rabid frothing of the mouth never get tiring ? are you not able to make a statement without using insults ?

Quote (ferdia @ 17 Aug 2023 10:44)

https://mronline.org/2023/02/11/zelensky-admits-he-never-intended-to-implement-minsk-agreements/ - Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky admitted on Thursday (feb 2021) that he had previously told German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Emmanuel Macron that the Minsk agreements were “impossible”, and he did not plan on implementing them.

that article also highlights: Ex-German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who was in office from 2005 to 2021 said in an interview published in early December that the Minsk accords were signed to “give Ukraine time” to strengthen itself. Merkel said “The 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give time to Ukraine. It also used this time to become stronger as can be seen today. The Ukraine of 2014-2015 is not the modern Ukraine.” According to her, “it was clear to everyone” that the conflict had been put on hold, noting that the issue had not been settled, yet this was what gave Ukraine invaluable time.

i can provide more sources if needed. this was all over the news a few months ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ0CkIavY6M

to be clear, i know alot of people hate her, but i am and ever was a big fan of Angela Merkel. I dont put the blame on Angela Merkel, I view her policies were sabotaged by others.

Quote (ferdia @ 17 Aug 2023 16:54)

Yes but I believe the french president said the same thing as well. if they are all saying it and its not in isolation then, honestly, i will accept this at face value.

thank you for providing those links ofc.