Quote (Malopox @ Aug 9 2023 11:37am)

I’ve actually went now and reread this whole article. It’s quite eloquently written and is eerily prophetic in 2023. I see they even mention Joe Biden.

If only more people read this article back the. and took some notes from eg collapse of Yugoslavia and terrible nationalistic wars stoked by various elements.

If we would have understood the dangers of escalating tensions in an already difficult region with complicated history perhaps all of this could have been resolved in a diplomatic fashion,

/edit: I’m quite concerned with strange fascination with Nazi ideology from some posters in this thread. We need to learn from the mistakes of the past and not repeat them. Promoting violence, racial supremacy, dehumanization of your opponents and militarism is a very dangerous path down somewhere dark. Goebbels propaganda is not the way to solve conflicts in 21st century.

Quote (ferdia @ Aug 9 2023 01:04pm)

what surprises me most is the European position relating to the war, how there is no meaningful opposing viewpoint except by fringe characters.

Relating to your comments re: Goebbels propaganda, an example of this was when Goebbels used the death of Horst Wessel in 1930 as a propaganda tool against "Communist subhumans".

when users refer to Putin as pootin, or Russians as orc's, this is the same method of propaganda that the Germans used to dehumanize the Russians. its a common theme, and has been used extensively in modern times to allow for inhuman behavior against people that the narrative has labeled as less then human, we only need to look at how people in the middle east were treated in that war when they were prisoners of war.

all this type of propaganda should be seen for what it is and we should all say no to it. defining a race of people as subhuman is simply wrong and a path to horrible events.

Quote (Santara @ Aug 9 2023 04:09am)

I'm still here, every single day. I just have less and less to say, and less time to say it.

Quote (ferdia @ 9 Aug 2023 09:30)

Fender your ignoring the events taking place in Georgia, and ignoring the events that took place over a protracted period of time in Ukraine. You are also ignoring all of the information we have now which outlines clearly that the US knew full well about Russia's security concerns but proceeded with their plans anyway in the face of strong opposition from their own intelligence services. Surely you are able to understand Russia's concerns ? You dont need to agree with them, but they are no different then what US concerns would be if the shoe was on the other foot. Look at Cuba. The US never forgave them, what has happened to Cuba for decades is no different from what Russia has done for years to Ukraine. If you want a nuclear superpower to behave then lets start with the US not threatening democracy around the world and threatening its own allies. Also his name is Putin, not Pootin. I never bothered previously to look up its meaning. This term refers to flatulence on a toilet. You are throwing in slurs and insults in a serious conversation, attempting to degrade the opponents standing, thereby endorsing whatever you want to do against animals. This is a base tactic, common in the world nowadays, unfortunately.

A short video summing things up. I presume you already watched this since it was posted twice before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVXzwnU1H6U

Quote (fender @ Aug 9 2023 04:38pm)

you also don't know what "war" means?

simple question: when did world war II start? when nazi germany invaded poland in 1939, or with the treaty of versailles in 1919? it is commonly accepted that the harsh economic, territorial, and political conditions of that treaty, the humiliation of being blamed as the sole responsible party for starting what most people would describe as an inevitable military confrontation in 1914, was a key part of nazi germany's reason to go to war again. but that doesn't mean the war started then and there, and it also doesn't mean the allied forces started it. nazi germany did. they decided to take military action and invade their neighbours. just like russia now.

so you can dishonestly argue that russia's invasion was somehow triggered or even justified because their puppet in kyiv was ousted when he turned dictator and violated the constitution, unilaterally canceling agreed upon treaties on moscow's behest - but that still doesn't mean that's when the WAR started.

imagine pretending to not understand simple words like "war" in order to make excuses for a murdering dictator, lol... how low can you sink?

Quote (ferdia @ 9 Aug 2023 17:50)

You dodged the whole pootin and orc's thing, and conveniently forgot about 7 years of bombing in eastern ukraine, nevermind decades of civil unrest supported by the west (accepted the west is more attractive). arguing about when the war started is semantics. of course the war started with russias invasion, if that makes you feel like you scored a point fair enough. if that was all, bye!

Quote (fender @ Aug 9 2023 08:38am)

you also don't know what "war" means?

simple question: when did world war II start? when nazi germany invaded poland in 1939, or with the treaty of versailles in 1919? it is commonly accepted that the harsh economic, territorial, and political conditions of that treaty, the humiliation of being blamed as the sole responsible party for starting what most people would describe as an inevitable military confrontation in 1914, was a key part of nazi germany's reason to go to war again. but that doesn't mean the war started then and there, and it also doesn't mean the allied forces started it. nazi germany did. they decided to take military action and invade their neighbours. just like russia now.

so you can dishonestly argue that russia's invasion was somehow triggered or even justified because their puppet in kyiv was ousted when he turned dictator and violated the constitution, unilaterally canceling agreed upon treaties on moscow's behest - but that still doesn't mean that's when the WAR started.

imagine pretending to not understand simple words like "war" in order to make excuses for a murdering dictator, lol... how low can you sink?

Quote (ferdia @ 9 Aug 2023 19:04)

what surprises me most is the European position relating to the war, how there is no meaningful opposing viewpoint except by fringe characters.

Relating to your comments re: Goebbels propaganda, an example of this was when Goebbels used the death of Horst Wessel in 1930 as a propaganda tool against "Communist subhumans".

when users refer to Putin as pootin, or Russians as orc's, this is the same method of propaganda that the Germans used to dehumanize the Russians. its a common theme, and has been used extensively in modern times to allow for inhuman behavior against people that the narrative has labeled as less then human, we only need to look at how people in the middle east were treated in that war when they were prisoners of war.

all this type of propaganda should be seen for what it is and we should all say no to it. defining a race of people as subhuman is simply wrong and a path to horrible events.

Quote (fender @ Aug 9 2023 05:12pm)

the whole "orcs" pearl clutching is YOUR dodge, YOUR attempt to change the subject. and it's just a disingenuous attempt at making murderers into victims, by falsely claiming "orcs" was being used to de-humanise ALL russians, when in reality it is a term being used for russian INVADERS and their leaders, coming to MURDER, RAPE, TORTURE, and DESTROY ukrainians and their country. you can't de-humanise murderers, rapists, torturers... they do that themselves by their actions.

also, let's not forget that the "7 years of bombing" are a conflict that russia instigated in order to "justify" going to war AGAIN after already having annexed crimea by military force. it's an MO we have seen before by russia (look at georgia for example) and russia certainly did not make the situation better by just outright destroying those regions, indiscriminately bombing civilians and military forces during their invasion.

back to the topic. it's not a matter of pure semantics. basically every single kremlin bot in this thread, you included, claimed that "the west" started this war, trying to downplay russia's responsibility for the hundreds of thousands of deaths, as well as a global economic crisis. that is, again, false and dishonest. it doesn't even matter how much you delude yourself about euromaidan - fact is that RUSSIA ALONE decided to take up arms and invade a sovereign nation, starting a WAR. i absolutely take that point. maybe let your pootlicker friends know that they are wrong too.

Quote (Hamsterbaby @ 9 Aug 2023 18:25)

The same way the Nazi party dehumanize the entire Jewish race. Just because there is a couple of greedy and unscrupulous individuals doesn't mean the entire race is responsible.
But that is how the world works i guess.

Quote (ferdia @ 9 Aug 2023 18:33)

OK your racist, i get it.