Quote (Black XistenZ @ 3 Aug 2023 08:42)

Oh, trust me, I'm well aware of this fact. I'm from Germany, a nation which is rich without noteworthy amounts of natural resources. And the size of our population and economy are exactly such that we can't quite dominate Europe, but also too big for us to not play an elevated role. Being at this awkward size, relative to our neighbors, has been one of the defining predicaments of Germany's and Europe's politics for the past 150 years.



I agree that these traits are extremely important and underrated these days - but they can't make up for a 12:1 disparity in size. No matter how disciplined, hard-working and well-run Japan is, 120m Japanese will never outproduce or outfight 330m Americans or 1.4bn Chinese.


Both the British and the Japanese colonialization were based on a gigantic technological and logistical advantage which simply doesn't exist anymore in the 21st century.

Quote (Hamsterbaby @ Aug 2 2023 08:54pm)

I agree at the bold part.

I would like to revert on the 330M American Part first

If the Japanese are independent from US influence i.e security and defense just to put it out there..

Domestic Political upheavals, division , affirmative actions , fail foreign policy decisions in the United States will give the Japanese a pretty good run against US. But alas , the Japanese is under pretty tight control even though they are a " sovereign" nation.
They came pretty close to overtake the United States in the 80s. With the help of the Americans of course, since the Americans told them to concentrate on the economy and leave the defense to the US.

On China

Sure , you cannot outproduce and outfight the 1.4 Billion Chinese, but that being said the internal politics of China is still rather fragile even with Xi taking over the helm. A major political fallout will cripple their rise in the short to mid term. Long term , nobody knows.


But that is just my take. I would appreciate your views on this.

Just to add..

I can also see where you are coming from if we are discussing this issue at the current moment. The Japanese population decline is a serious problem all this will eventually add up as you mentioned before that the Japanese will not be able to compete.
But if all these equation, their population decline etc etc is not taken into consideration. Their culture and traits does give them a very solid fight and chance.

Quote (bogie160 @ Aug 3 2023 07:06am)

Bold, you are putting this very badly. It's certainly not how we think about them. You could say the same about the British, Australians, or Germans. Yes, America is the larger partner and therefore has more to say, but it's akin to the best player on the team having a greater say on strategy, not some sort of neo-colonial relationship.

Quote (bogie160 @ 3 Aug 2023 13:06)

Bold, you are putting this very badly. It's certainly not how we think about them. You could say the same about the British, Australians, or Germans. Yes, America is the larger partner and therefore has more to say, but it's akin to the best player on the team having a greater say on strategy, not some sort of neo-colonial relationship.

Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Aug 3 2023 08:42am)

Blew Japan up with nukes and rebuilt it with American military bases, hmm...

But of course they could just ask the Americans to leave at anytime, they are a free and independent nation after all and the US wouldn't dare interfere with how they run their country. :drool:

Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Aug 2 2023 12:56pm)

That thought does make me doubt my beliefs for sure, I might be seeing 4D chess when they are really playing checkers.

I just see the war on terror as a drastic change in how US foreign policy was conducted and I don't think it would have been motivated purely by financial gain.

I think the reconstruction of Germany was more about creating a western controlled bulwark against communism and stopping the resurrection of fascism while also extending US influence through Europe via a stranglehold on manufacturing. I think a lot of that stuff was based on heartland theory and it's various offshoots.

I don’t think the term psyop is really appropriate in this context, IMO the general thinking was that China would naturally gravitate to a western liberal style democracy over time and allowing US corporations to operate there would speed up the process. Making tons of money was obviously nice but not worth the long term cost of destroying US industry.

^Hamsterbaby
They probably didn't read it, why would they value his views at that point(2014)? His theory had already failed in their eyes and if my theory about the war on terror is correct they were already more than a decade into their strategy of containing China.

And I checked out that link, very interesting. My opinion is they were all correct in some ways and wrong in others, I don't think any of their theories completely explain things but I do think they offer valuable perspective. I need to read clash of civilization, I have read summaries of it but not the actual book.

Haven't heard of Betts, will check him out for sure, thanks!

Quote (Neptunus @ Aug 3 2023 08:57am)

Its a double edged sword. They certainly have benefitted from the arrangement and the more time goes by, the more it resembles the alliance between the US and Europe. Japan is the only country able to look anyone in the eye and say "it's not worth it".

Quote (thesnipa @ Aug 3 2023 10:11am)

now that you mentioned it you're correct, germany was more motivated by a bulwark against ideology. and i think that's a more strong motivator in that context than either china/iraq, which i think were more purely greed motivated.

honestly the west doesnt have much to gain from the middle east becoming more democratic, and even china would see a large slump in production if they became more democratic. democracy brings workers rights, better pay, better standard of living. all of those cut into both the chinese and by proxy american bottom lines. ideology change in china could be a serious issue for the world supply chain, even though its morally correct and i support it.

Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Aug 3 2023 04:44pm)

Sure, no one would argue they haven't benefited, it is better to be on the winning team than not as a general rule.

Not everything in the world is a clearly quantified statistic though, when you get into issues like sovereignty it becomes a lot trickier to navigate and come out with a clear answer as to what is "best"



It was multiple factors IMO not just one. Dumping money into Germany was a long term investment in American power, which I think is much more valuable than money. Would you rather have unlimited money or control the world? An exaggeration, but it illustrates my point.

I don't think the US cares at all about "democracy", it's just the guise under which they spread their influence. It's also a pretty wide term, Russia and the US are both "democracies" and I'm sure we could find one or two African generals from "THE GLORIOUS PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF AK47" who claim to be democratic.

I think people attribute some magical properties to democracy that don't really exist, though there is probably also a massive propaganda effort to maintain that belief.

Quote (babun1024 @ Aug 3 2023 12:50pm)

Democracy is well definied. Main point is the separation of judicative, legislative and execute with regular elections with observers. Puting "democratic" in the name or called a republic "people's" doesn't make them democratic. The US fullfills democracy criteria on paper ( actual oligarchy). The best democracy as of now is in Swiss.