The blood of millions drips from many flags. But the US has done the most good to counter that. Doesn't even matter if deliberately or not.

This post was edited by Neptunus on Jul 15 2023 06:14pm

No it has not. The US has done absolutely nothing of good and as much bad if not more than every empire that preceded it. Only the British are comparable.

The article is behind a paywall on New York Times' webpage:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/15/us/politics/ukraine-leopards-bradleys-counteroffensive.html

I will try to respond to this in a round about way using two anecdotal stories.

I went to Germany for work. I traveled overland by train, from Holland to Germany. It was a 4 hour train journey. In the carriage with me was an elderly dutch passenger. I started a conversation with him and discussed various topic's and it was very pleasant. Eventually it came around to where was I going. I told him I was going to work in Germany. At that point he stopped talking and refused to speak to me again. He hated Germany with a passion and said exactly what you just said, nothing of good and so much bad came from that country. He viewed me with distrust and anger. Understand, both of my grandparents were in concentration camps and one of them died horribly, and my mother was also not happy that I was working in Germany, so it would be a stretch to say I don't understand. He was too old to change his view so I left him alone.

Some years ago I watched a video where Neil Degrasse Tyson was giving a lecture. He was speaking about Islam. He put forward that Islam slowed the world for centuries because some cleric over 1000 years ago said math was the devil, which as a consequence led to those that worshiped Islam, to reject technology. He put forward the notion - imagine how far advanced the world would be, if that had not happened. It was a compelling argument.

Here is a video, from Americans, about America:



The key take away here is : countries are too broad a concept to apportion blame on people. Countries are not bad, people are bad, but good and bad people live in countries. You can rail against an ideology or institution but understand that every country will have its positives and negatives.

It is a fact that the US has been a beacon of light for the western world (WW2 springs to mind) and is viewed in some quarters as a place of evil. It is all about perspective. It is neither, it is simply the United States and personal history determines how people view any country. The US has stretched itself to every corner of the world, for both good and ill, but they are born, just like you and me, they are children, just like you and me, they grow up, just like you and me, they live their lives, just like you and me, and they die, just like you and me.

A final story - When I was a child, I lived in the countryside. On sunday I had to walk to mass. It was a 5km walk. I got a lift from a neighbor. Along the way, we passed by another neighbors child. He was 7 at the time and had fallen off his bike at the bottom of a hill. He was on the ground bawling, and there was alot of blood. IWe drove past the child and did not stop. I asked why we were not stopping and was told "he is from the Doyle family, we dont stop for them". I learned later that he had a broken leg. We drove to mass, attended mass for an hour and then drove home. Tourists passing by picked up the boy, brought him into the village and he was rushed to hospital, he had an operation and thankfully he made a full recovery.

So I have seen the good and the bad. I have traveled the world, and yes to the US, and yes my family traveled to the US and yes at times it was not pleasant, but at times it was. So in conclusion, I am sorry for preaching but Russia is not all bad, and neither is Putin. the US is not all bad and neither is Biden, England is not all bad and neither is Rishi Sunnak etc.

Ukrainians will hate Russians for what is happening to their country, just like the Irish hated the English for a century, or how the middle-east hates the US. but a distinction needs to be made as to what precisely is the object of hate, and hating a country is effectively racism and is too broad a lens.

This post was edited by ferdia on Jul 16 2023 04:20am

--> @25:25, Taiwan's outdated 1960 era Hawk air defense system headed to Ukraine. An act of desperation just like sending cluster munitions?

The whole thing is well worth watching btw (A look at the map, Ukraine's counteroffensive stalling, Russian defenses, the losses, comparing artillery, Ukraine needs more counter battery radars, etc)

All articles linked below (you tube)

UKs defense secretary Ben Wallace quits.

This is one of the bigger western hawks. Imo this is probably tied to the war effort. He was the one that chided Zelensky for being ungrateful during nato summit.

Rat leaving the sinking ship

This post was edited by babun1024 on Jul 16 2023 06:47am

So I don't think the lack of answers to any of this has changed in months:

• That Ukraine was a legitimate democracy prior to 2014 and America helped overthrow their government in a color revolution and set up a client state.
  
• That the population of the separatist regions overwhelming supported joining Russia because they are mostly ethnic Russians who had been in a siege for most of a decade.
  
• That Nazism was and still is widespread among Ukraine's military and especially eastern population bordering the separatist regions.
  
• That the conflict has been immensely destructive on both sides, with large casualties and many war crimes and cities razed and extensive landmining that will persist.
  
• That the most likely outcome hasn't changed at all, that battle lines are static and entrenched, and all casualties between now and the eventual resolution will be for nothing

Is there any change to any of that?

More bad then Nazis? Oh shit sorry i pulled out the Hitler card.

We can agree that the nukes on Japan were terrible. But they still lose to the Holocaust.

These very sad nukes not only it stopped Nazis but it also stopped Staline's regime which killed 20 millions of its own people.
It's not hard to consider the potential damage barbaric regimes like the Soviet/Russian elites or even the CCP (which killed likes 50 or 80 millions of its own people) coud have done to our World if US & associated democracies were not in charge to stop them.
These 2 regimes, which are still alive today, would probably have exterminated and enslaved billion(s) people. Putin's "Multipolar World, free of US"...? No intelligent person would believe this bullshit.

Russia has traditionally been ruled by tsars and boyars, there never was “true sovereignty of peoples” or any kind of fair justice and equality. Same for chinese red princes.
Don't expect they act or acted better than the West, would simply have been 100 times worse.

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Jul 16 2023 08:53am