Quote (Meanwhile @ Jul 11 2023 08:35pm)

Thoughs and Prayers to Americans sacrifying their healthcare & welfare for bringing Ukraine, a promising ressource, into EU. Along with massively helping in disabling russian mafia.

These 3 points are demolishing the "coup" designation made by russian propagandists:

- Yanukovich deliberately lied about joining EU / investments to get elected, then later turned back: protests were perfectly justified
- Yanukovich pro-russian secret police used paid thugs in an attempt to turn the protests into violent riots to proceed (and excuse) repression
- Constitutional vote: Ukraine’s parliament voted 328–0 (about 73% of its 447 members) to remove President Viktor Yanukovich

Quote (Djunior @ 11 Jul 2023 20:44)

Your opinion ^^
Presidents sometimes take decisions that parliament doesn't agree with. Remember Macron's pension reform? Macron took a very controversial decision. You say that protests in such case are perfectly justified, now should a foreign power like Russia or China stage a coup in France and claim that "it's justified" because of that?
They could even call it French spring how about that ;)
E: look at Biden, he just signed a waiver so he can send cluster munitions to Ukraine. Hmm? LMK

Quote (Meanwhile @ Jul 11 2023 08:54pm)

Not my opinion; each point is documented in wikipedia...
Macron's pension reform is completely out of the subject and unrelated. Such a deeply stupid attempt to move goals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Fleeing_to_Russia
'The EU association agreement was signed on 29 May 2014, after his removal"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titushky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Removal_from_presidency

Quote (thesnipa @ Jul 11 2023 07:15pm)

yes of course we've carried out many coups. its just that most of the time our modus operandi is to EITHER pay off almost everyone in power and rule by proxy OR invade, destroy, rebuild. this is a very mild coup involvement for US standards. yet i get strawmanned with "what about IRAQ YOU MONSTER KIDS DIED" constantly in this thread. i'm not pro iraq war, im not pro US imperialism, im just stating the facts as i see them.

if i had to define THE CATALYST it's Yanukovyc abruptly ending EU trade talks. not the slightly better prepared protesters who rose up as a result. honestly the contrast between Russian business ties vs US/EU business ties is so stark that we wouldnt even need to pay oligarchs in cash, just say "yes we'll do business with you".

but lets say Yanukovyc tears up the trade talks, AND the us didnt pay to train protesters, does the coup still happen in your opinion? that's a KEY question.

Quote (ferdia @ Jul 11 2023 03:05pm)

it is far easier to point to his other post. Anyway here is my view of the post:

1. so far in line with what ive seen, bit of cash to train protesters how to protest. <<-- clearly more then this, but if this is the least, then the fact remains that the US government was complicit in the coup, which undermines the notion of "the people rising up against tyranny".

2. my overarching contention is that Western economic ties are a valuable resource, <<-- completely agree
3. and some number of people in Ukraine have desired to tie more strongly with the EU for a long time and move away from Russian influence. << -- completely agree
4. it's dollar and cents. <<-- completely agree
5. so while we did stoke that fire in 2004,(2014?) the fire was already lit. It's been lit since the moment the Berlin wall fell. <<-- this supports the notion that converting Ukraine to the west was a long term goal, in my opinion.
6. Russia isn't a backwater 3rd world nation, but they can't provide the same level of prosperity as EU and the US. <<-- completely agree (note: the expressing "3rd world" is a redundant expression which should no longer be used).
7. but this whole situation stands in stark contrast to a situation like Iraq. where the pro-US/Western narrative was non-existent in the country. <<-- completely agree
8. ...and still is for that matter. same with Afghanistan. it's a reason why the nation building projects we've attempted in the Middle east have been an abject failure. << -- completely agree
9. ...there was no fire started, we started it with bombs, then tried to be heroes for putting it out. it doesnt work. << -- completely agree
10. we've world built in asia, south/central america, eastern europe, and africa. all places where just a sprinkle of promise of western economic prosperity is most of the battle, <<-- you send "aid to these countries. Its aid which is not "free".
11. and i'd say Ukraine was far closer to that than iraq. <<-- completely agree
12. thus why i contend we weren't strictly instrumental to the coup, but rather a catalyst. << -- I would contend the US was THE catalyst, noting there is ample evidence to support that this is the US modus operandi. There is no murmur of other countries (other then the US and Russia) playing tug of war with the governance of Ukraine.

^thesnipa I guess i should have tagged you here. anyway, we are where we are. If you believe that the US was not complicit or instrumental with what has happened, and where we are, that is your opinion. We don't have to agree.

Quote (Djunior @ 11 Jul 2023 21:07)

It's completely clear that my point is that presidents can take controversial decisions, in no way shape or form am I comparing the pension reforms to Euromaidan.
My god your reading comprehension :wacko:

Quote (ferdia @ Jul 11 2023 01:30pm)

i agree that Yanukovyc abruptly ending EU trade talks was a tipping point, but understand, as we look at Georgia, the protests there were created by US forces. So while I can completely agree with you that there were masses of people in Ukraine that ever leaned westwards, it is my contention that the US was instrumental with the uprising, noting, again, this was straight out of the proverbial US playbook which they are using currently, in Georgia.

US politicians had no business being in Ukraine in 2014, stoking the masses. Its like Brexit, if you tell the masses something over and over, and say that everything will be great after something is changed/removed, when YOU KNOW that this is going to cause serious problems, you are not blameless when all hell breaks loose.

re: but lets say Yanukovyc tears up the trade talks, AND the us didnt pay to train protesters, does the coup still happen in your opinion? that's a KEY question. <<-- I dont see this as the key question. Ultimately the US was complicit and therefore we dont need to play guessing games of What If They Were Not Complicit.

Quote (Meanwhile @ Jul 11 2023 09:19pm)

Nah, pension reform -was- in Macron's program and it -was- already in voting process in 2020 (Covid suspended it). While Yanukovich deliberately lied about joining EU to get elected.
It's wasn't just a "controversial decisions" it was a blatant scam lol